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  # 1393669 24-Sep-2015 15:32
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dafman: Yeah, but do you like buying from manufacturers who lie to you about what they are selling? I don't.


It depends. I don't believe a lot of the hype we see in advertising. Also I generally don't buy a product on hyped up figures nor place a lot of importance on fuel economy or emission claims. My thinking is fuel economy and emission parameters are based on the physics of internal combustion engines and most manufacturers are in the same league therefore their figures won't vary greatly.  In other words it takes X amount of energy to shift X amount of mass X distance. Therefore if I discovered some of the advertising hype over stated the case I'd probably just shrug my shoulders and think that's probably par for the course.  So long as the product did the job I bought it for and the cost to run it was within expected parameters I'd move on.

If you look at the VW clams you would see they weren't in the same league as other manufacturers, in other words they were too good to be true. I'd go as far to suggest those that are upset about being duped should look closer to home to see where part of the blame lies. If they were really concerned about the emissions their car produced they would have known what VW's figures were compared to other manufacturers and they should have been asking themselves if these amazing figures were likely to be correct.  It's no different to people believing hyped up claims on other products when it's obvious to anyone who does a bit of basic research that the claims have to be false.  Buyer beware.




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  # 1393683 24-Sep-2015 15:56
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Technofreak:
dafman: Yeah, but do you like buying from manufacturers who lie to you about what they are selling? I don't.


It depends. I don't believe a lot of the hype we see in advertising. Also I generally don't buy a product on hyped up figures nor place a lot of importance on fuel economy or emission claims. My thinking is fuel economy and emission parameters are based on the physics of internal combustion engines and most manufacturers are in the same league therefore their figures won't vary greatly.  In other words it takes X amount of energy to shift X amount of mass X distance. Therefore if I discovered some of the advertising hype over stated the case I'd probably just shrug my shoulders and think that's probably par for the course.  So long as the product did the job I bought it for and the cost to run it was within expected parameters I'd move on.

If you look at the VW clams you would see they weren't in the same league as other manufacturers, in other words they were too good to be true. I'd go as far to suggest those that are upset about being duped should look closer to home to see where part of the blame lies. If they were really concerned about the emissions their car produced they would have known what VW's figures were compared to other manufacturers and they should have been asking themselves if these amazing figures were likely to be correct.  It's no different to people believing hyped up claims on other products when it's obvious to anyone who does a bit of basic research that the claims have to be false.  Buyer beware.


A manufacturer that hypes up, simply exaggerates; something that is easily shown up if tested.

A manufacturer that deliberately sets out to deceive, and configures the deception to avoid detection if tested, is something else.

VW just didn't claim hyped up figures, they went one step further by deliberately subverting approved industry testing of their claims. Buyer beware - you've got to be joking, surely?


 
 
 
 




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  # 1393691 24-Sep-2015 16:09
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Technofreak:
dafman: Yeah, but do you like buying from manufacturers who lie to you about what they are selling? I don't.


It depends. I don't believe a lot of the hype we see in advertising. Also I generally don't buy a product on hyped up figures nor place a lot of importance on fuel economy or emission claims. My thinking is fuel economy and emission parameters are based on the physics of internal combustion engines and most manufacturers are in the same league therefore their figures won't vary greatly.  In other words it takes X amount of energy to shift X amount of mass X distance. Therefore if I discovered some of the advertising hype over stated the case I'd probably just shrug my shoulders and think that's probably par for the course.  So long as the product did the job I bought it for and the cost to run it was within expected parameters I'd move on.

If you look at the VW clams you would see they weren't in the same league as other manufacturers, in other words they were too good to be true. I'd go as far to suggest those that are upset about being duped should look closer to home to see where part of the blame lies. If they were really concerned about the emissions their car produced they would have known what VW's figures were compared to other manufacturers and they should have been asking themselves if these amazing figures were likely to be correct.  It's no different to people believing hyped up claims on other products when it's obvious to anyone who does a bit of basic research that the claims have to be false.  Buyer beware.


Well there's "puffery":
"It'll run on the smell of an oily rag"
Obfuscation:
"0.5 l / 100km on our local test circuit"  (repeated runs down Baldwin St Dunedin, towed back to the top)
And probably plain fraud:

(if this is - as is quite likely - one of the 11 million affected VWs, then it won't do 4.4l/100km/117g CO2/km emissions based on Euro testing - as it can't even pass Euro testing because of the prohibited emissions defeat device)

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  # 1393714 24-Sep-2015 16:43
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dafman: A manufacturer that hypes up, simply exaggerates; something that is easily shown up if tested.


So you take as gospel the fuel economy figures you see advertised on motor vehicles and energy efficiency ratings you see on electrical appliances?

Does your car achieve the figures quoted? Is your refrigerator as efficient as it's claimed to be?  Remember these are tested figures but won't necessarily be reflected in real life.

I don't agree that what VW did was right, but I bet there's a few other manufacturers scurrying around ready to cover their buts.




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  # 1393719 24-Sep-2015 16:51
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Technofreak:
dafman: A manufacturer that hypes up, simply exaggerates; something that is easily shown up if tested.


So you take as gospel the fuel economy figures you see advertised on motor vehicles and energy efficiency ratings you see on electrical appliances?

Does your car achieve the figures quoted? Is your refrigerator as efficient as it's claimed to be?  Remember these are tested figures but won't necessarily be reflected in real life.

I don't agree that what VW did was right, but I bet there's a few other manufacturers scurrying around ready to cover their buts.


My wife's 2013 Toyota Corolla  specs say 6.5 L/ 100KM and she has had it down to 6.1 L/ 100KM on a trip and currently sits at about 6.7 L/100K around town  compare to my European made 2008  Mondeo that does a gas guzzling 13.1 L/ 100 KM  around town..




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  # 1393737 24-Sep-2015 17:21
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Technofreak:
dafman: A manufacturer that hypes up, simply exaggerates; something that is easily shown up if tested.


So you take as gospel the fuel economy figures you see advertised on motor vehicles and energy efficiency ratings you see on electrical appliances?



Yes, I place reliance on stated fuel economy, and energy efficiency ratings, having been substantiated under approved industry testing regimes.

Of cause real world performance will vary from those achieved under test conditions, that's not the issue here. 



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  # 1393757 24-Sep-2015 17:51
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dafman:
Technofreak:
dafman: A manufacturer that hypes up, simply exaggerates; something that is easily shown up if tested.


So you take as gospel the fuel economy figures you see advertised on motor vehicles and energy efficiency ratings you see on electrical appliances?



Yes, I place reliance on stated fuel economy, and energy efficiency ratings, having been substantiated under approved industry testing regimes.

Of cause real world performance will vary from those achieved under test conditions, that's not the issue here. 


You shouldn't place any faith at all on stated fuel economy ratings - especially now - but always.  Car dealers are usually very careful not to "validate" the manufacturer stated figures printed on the window cards, or as we have seen recently with the case of the guy with the Ford Kuga he bought stating 7.4l/100km on the card, they can be successfully sued.  Ford NZ in that case used the Euro figure, but in the hearing claimed that it "should" have done more like 9.5l/100km, which is actually consistent with the US EPA figure (but still less than the car owner achieved).

 
 
 
 


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  # 1393759 24-Sep-2015 17:58
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Of the Japs, Mazda probably had the lowest fuel consumption claims. I don't own a Mazda so I can't comment. The rest are about the same claimed economy or there or thereabouts.




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.




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  # 1393761 24-Sep-2015 18:11
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joker97: Of the Japs, Mazda probably had the lowest fuel consumption claims. I don't own a Mazda so I can't comment. The rest are about the same claimed economy or there or thereabouts.


Mazda with "SkyActiv" have about the most sophisticated fuel economy technology of the japanese makers.  (very high compression stratified charge direct injection with engine-compression activated "stop/start" and multi-ratio conventional auto transmissions with torque converter lock-up on all forward gears).  How well they'll still be going when they're 10 years old and with 150,000kms under the belt is another story.

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  # 1393779 24-Sep-2015 19:16
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Yes, I place reliance on stated fuel economy, and energy efficiency ratings, having been substantiated under approved industry testing regimes.

Of cause real world performance will vary from those achieved under test conditions, that's not the issue here. 


No one should have any faith or reliance in stated fuel economy.  Its done in a lab on a travelling road.  The test results are subject to manipulation by manufacturers and are now nothing more than worthless.

The test results should probably be conducted like jury's.  Get a 1000 people to drive the vehicle for the week and get the overall average.




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  # 1393789 24-Sep-2015 19:40
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I have a Peugeot diesel, so I watch with interest

That said where there is big money there will be cheating just like sport

I have little doubt many tests are cheated VW's issue is they got caught, look hard enough and you're find cheating everywhere

A clever manufacturer will cheat but ensure it by an interpretation of law or regulation rather than blatant

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  # 1393930 24-Sep-2015 21:18
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xlinknz: I have a Peugeot diesel, so I watch with interest

That said where there is big money there will be cheating just like sport

I have little doubt many tests are cheated VW's issue is they got caught, look hard enough and you're find cheating everywhere

A clever manufacturer will cheat but ensure it by an interpretation of law or regulation rather than blatant


A clever manufacturer will cheat but ensure it by an interpretation of law or regulation rather than blatant

Which may well still happen in this case.  After all VW met the emission requirements at the RPM ranges where the tests were measured. I know it's bit of a stretch but some might argue that by meeting the emission targets at the test RPMs, VW was compliant. sealed

Honest? No.

Compliant? Possibly




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  # 1393984 24-Sep-2015 22:39
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Technofreak:
xlinknz: I have a Peugeot diesel, so I watch with interest

That said where there is big money there will be cheating just like sport

I have little doubt many tests are cheated VW's issue is they got caught, look hard enough and you're find cheating everywhere

A clever manufacturer will cheat but ensure it by an interpretation of law or regulation rather than blatant


A clever manufacturer will cheat but ensure it by an interpretation of law or regulation rather than blatant

Which may well still happen in this case.  After all VW met the emission requirements at the RPM ranges where the tests were measured. I know it's bit of a stretch but some might argue that by meeting the emission targets at the test RPMs, VW was compliant. sealed

Honest? No.

Compliant? Possibly


Compliant? - not possible in your wildest dreams.  Under Article 5 of EU regulation No 715/2007, they'd disqualified themselves by cheating before the cars had even been tested.


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  # 1393990 24-Sep-2015 22:57
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Fred99:
joker97: Of the Japs, Mazda probably had the lowest fuel consumption claims. I don't own a Mazda so I can't comment. The rest are about the same claimed economy or there or thereabouts.


Mazda with "SkyActiv" have about the most sophisticated fuel economy technology of the japanese makers.  (very high compression stratified charge direct injection with engine-compression activated "stop/start" and multi-ratio conventional auto transmissions with torque converter lock-up on all forward gears).  How well they'll still be going when they're 10 years old and with 150,000kms under the belt is another story.


I think the days of keeping cars beyond 10 years and 150,000km are long gone. They're just too complex to be economic to operate when they're old and tired.

My Mazda has a five year warranty and I probably won't keep it any longer than that.

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  # 1394082 25-Sep-2015 07:55
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Which may well still happen in this case.  After all VW met the emission requirements at the RPM ranges where the tests were measured. I know it's bit of a stretch but some might argue that by meeting the emission targets at the test RPMs, VW was compliant. sealed

Honest? No.

Compliant? Possibly


You have missed the important bit that VW has already admitted it.  So this is not a case about proving they did - but about the damages to be awarded and how to put it right.




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