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2538 posts

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  Reply # 1394142 25-Sep-2015 09:17
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pdath: You have missed the important bit that VW has already admitted it.  So this is not a case about proving they did - but about the damages to be awarded and how to put it right.


What have VW actually admitted to.  Putting software in the ECU that ensures the emission standards are met under certain conditions?

Fredd99 has quoted part of the EU regulations and read in isolation it would seen VW could not be deemed to be compliant. However until you read the complete regulation and interpret how that passage is applied nothing can be taken for granted. There's a difference from complying with the rules as written and complying with their intent. It's possible to comply with the rules as written yet still not comply with their intent.  This is where smart lawyers come in.

I'm playing devils advocate to those who are predicting the end for VW.

Let's say you've built a new engine and tested it for compliance against the rules. The rules say that the emissions shall not exceed certain levels as tested at certain RPMs. These RPMs have been chosen because they are thought to be representative of normal operating conditions and the expectation is that if the emissions are within tolerances at these RPMs the engine should be able to meet compliance at all other RPMs.

Your testing shows compliance.

At some later time you are doing some other testing and discover that for some reason your fabulous new engine isn't meeting the emission standards at other RPMs.  

Are you compliant with the rule as written?  I'd argue that you were.

Are you compliant with the intent of the rule? I'd argue that you weren't. 

What VW has done was deliberate not by accident which is certainly a lot worse that it happening inadvertently.

Depending on how the rule is interpreted VW could possibly argue they still complied with the rule.

There's plenty of cases where smart lawyers have won cases on these sorts of technicalities where the defendant was as guilty as sin.

Also I'd bet VW aren't alone they've just been "unlucky" to have been caught. There'll be other manufacturers out there with hearts in their mouths hoping they're not caught out on this or some other rule. There'll be a bit of a song and dance but I wouldn't be surprised VW will pay some token fine and the event will be forgotten as there will others who won't want to much blow torch action on this subject.




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  Reply # 1394146 25-Sep-2015 09:22
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Fred99: (if this is - as is quite likely - one of the 11 million affected VWs, then it won't do 4.4l/100km/117g CO2/km emissions based on Euro testing - as it can't even pass Euro testing because of the prohibited emissions defeat device)


Would that be the case? I caught the end of a radio interview where it was stated that the cheat was to meet the US NO2 test whereas the Euro test focused on CO2.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1394201 25-Sep-2015 09:52
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The reality is the here we know very little and everything is speculation. This whole thing will take years to sort out .
INMHO the US would be better served addressing their energy and financial institutions




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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1394212 25-Sep-2015 10:01
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MikeB4: The reality is the here we know very little and everything is speculation. This whole thing will take years to sort out .
INMHO the US would be better served addressing their energy and financial institutions


What do you mean by that?  VW has come out and admitted it.  There is a detailed research project on the issue.  The EPA have publicly announced it.  What speculation is there?




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  Reply # 1394216 25-Sep-2015 10:04
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pdath:
MikeB4: The reality is the here we know very little and everything is speculation. This whole thing will take years to sort out .
INMHO the US would be better served addressing their energy and financial institutions


What do you mean by that?  VW has come out and admitted it.  There is a detailed research project on the issue.  The EPA have publicly announced it.  What speculation is there?


The details, intent, next steps etc etc etc




Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1394218 25-Sep-2015 10:06
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My advice. Even if you are caught with a smoking gun at the scene of a murder shouting "I did it!", you are best advised to plead not guilty and go for a jury trial. Someone will always give you the benefit of doubt (-;



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  Reply # 1394226 25-Sep-2015 10:17
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Technofreak:
pdath: You have missed the important bit that VW has already admitted it.  So this is not a case about proving they did - but about the damages to be awarded and how to put it right.


What have VW actually admitted to.  Putting software in the ECU that ensures the emission standards are met under certain conditions?

Fredd99 has quoted part of the EU regulations and read in isolation it would seen VW could not be deemed to be compliant. However until you read the complete regulation and interpret how that passage is applied nothing can be taken for granted. There's a difference from complying with the rules as written and complying with their intent. It's possible to comply with the rules as written yet still not comply with their intent.  This is where smart lawyers come in.



Oh please...
They've admitted it.  If smart lawyers can change history so that VAG's admission of guilt can be disregarded, then the world is a far more corrupt place than even some of the worst conspiracy theorists would claim.
Use of the defeat device as VAG have done is absolutely prohibited in the EU regulations.  There's nothing which could be subject to "interpretation" there.

No doubt VAG's lawyers would be very happy if there was a "mitigating circumstance" - at least in terms of the "court of public opinion" - "oh - it's not as bad as we thought - because everyone's doing it" and/or "the laws suck".
 
However - while that may well be the case, it shouldn't even slightly excuse VAG for their cheating/deception/fraud, and it sure as hell shouldn't be seen as a good thing if such corruption/fraud is found to be widespread.



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  Reply # 1394246 25-Sep-2015 10:23
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MikeB4: The reality is the here we know very little and everything is speculation. This whole thing will take years to sort out .
INMHO the US would be better served addressing their energy and financial institutions


Some is absolutely not speculation.  VW/Audi cheated on emissions testing.

Already there are articles appearing online and in print which attempt to water down their culpability.  Much of it will be ghost-written spin.



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  Reply # 1394252 25-Sep-2015 10:26
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MikeB4:
pdath:
MikeB4: The reality is the here we know very little and everything is speculation. This whole thing will take years to sort out .
INMHO the US would be better served addressing their energy and financial institutions


What do you mean by that?  VW has come out and admitted it.  There is a detailed research project on the issue.  The EPA have publicly announced it.  What speculation is there?


The details, intent, next steps etc etc etc


Oh you are kidding surely about the "intent".
The intent was to make money by knowingly breaking the law.

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  Reply # 1394259 25-Sep-2015 10:36
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Is there an article that explains what VW did exactly? I'm interested.

Eg if the law says no motors on bikes and you put a motor on a bike and win the tour de France, vs
the law says you need to weigh your bike and you didn't weight your bike and it was over by 1g when weighed eventually

they are a bit different, though both are guilty, and both will be stripped of the title.

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  Reply # 1394271 25-Sep-2015 10:44
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Fred99:
MikeB4:
pdath:
MikeB4: The reality is the here we know very little and everything is speculation. This whole thing will take years to sort out .
INMHO the US would be better served addressing their energy and financial institutions


What do you mean by that?  VW has come out and admitted it.  There is a detailed research project on the issue.  The EPA have publicly announced it.  What speculation is there?


The details, intent, next steps etc etc etc


Oh you are kidding surely about the "intent".
The intent was to make money by knowingly breaking the law.


That is to be determined by Courts if it gets there.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 




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  Reply # 1394317 25-Sep-2015 11:29
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MikeB4:
Fred99:
MikeB4:
pdath:
MikeB4: The reality is the here we know very little and everything is speculation. This whole thing will take years to sort out .
INMHO the US would be better served addressing their energy and financial institutions


What do you mean by that?  VW has come out and admitted it.  There is a detailed research project on the issue.  The EPA have publicly announced it.  What speculation is there?


The details, intent, next steps etc etc etc


Oh you are kidding surely about the "intent".
The intent was to make money by knowingly breaking the law.


That is to be determined by Courts if it gets there.


You seem intent on suggesting that there's doubt that it was a deliberate act.  It was a deliberate act.
You don't need a court to determine if profit was the motive. Suggest an alternative motive if you can think of one - I'll listen. 

There's no "if it gets there" (to court).  It is going to court.



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  Reply # 1394323 25-Sep-2015 11:36
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joker97: Is there an article that explains what VW did exactly? I'm interested.

Eg if the law says no motors on bikes and you put a motor on a bike and win the tour de France, vs
the law says you need to weigh your bike and you didn't weight your bike and it was over by 1g when weighed eventually

they are a bit different, though both are guilty, and both will be stripped of the title.


This article seems to be reasonably concise although not completely up to date.


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  Reply # 1394338 25-Sep-2015 12:32
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Looks like VW wasn't alone in using defeat devices. Does not make what VW did any better. Will be interesting to see if this will impact the sales of diesel engine cars, given that it looks like it will be hard to meet emission standards with todays diesel engines.

Europe's carmakers caught up in VW storm




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  Reply # 1394354 25-Sep-2015 12:54
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Fred99:
MikeB4:
Fred99:
MikeB4:
pdath:
MikeB4: The reality is the here we know very little and everything is speculation. This whole thing will take years to sort out .
INMHO the US would be better served addressing their energy and financial institutions


What do you mean by that?  VW has come out and admitted it.  There is a detailed research project on the issue.  The EPA have publicly announced it.  What speculation is there?


The details, intent, next steps etc etc etc


Oh you are kidding surely about the "intent".
The intent was to make money by knowingly breaking the law.


That is to be determined by Courts if it gets there.


You seem intent on suggesting that there's doubt that it was a deliberate act.  It was a deliberate act.
You don't need a court to determine if profit was the motive. Suggest an alternative motive if you can think of one - I'll listen. 

There's no "if it gets there" (to court).  It is going to court.


I would think they will settle before it gets to court. 

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