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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1432114 21-Nov-2015 11:24
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ubergeeknz:
turnin: 


If you require the minute handling benefits afforded by a manual transmission to adequately control your vehicle on a public road, I have serious questions about whether you should be allowed to drive on that road.


So what part of
"But these extreme conditions you speak off spring up rapidly in everyday situations, usually before and causative to a crash, when you have to slow down and change direction quickly, skipping on fundamentals is dangerous.
You simply don't learn those fundamentals in an auto because engine braking and weighting of the front suspension under deceleration is not only reduced but it is sporadic in the sense that there are hydraulic and electronic factors that a driver can't detect or predict ".

Didn't you get. ?
I said you simply don't LEARN those fundamentals in an auto , I didn't say you require fine control of weight transfer in everyday driving . but i will say that you do require fine control when you create lots of weight transfer, especially if it's off the parallel. Eg braking and turning .

Seriously if you think weight transfer provides only a "minute" advantage in vehicle control when avoidance or slowing is required then you need to question your own understanding.

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1432117 21-Nov-2015 11:34
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Weight transfer is important at the limits of friction e.g. track/road racing or rallying. But to make use of it you need to feel that limit. Where the entire car set up is in balance. From the chassis to the suspension to the tyres all tuned in and the driver being an extension of the machine.

On the open road there is only one thing to learn about weight transfer 101 for road users.
Brake in a straight line, do all your braking in a straight line, then you may turn. Aka Do not turn when braking hard.

 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1432123 21-Nov-2015 11:46
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And i agree situational awareness is most important. As important a parking in the middle of the box.

Last week driving at 100 i was watching a car at a junction. He looked everywhere. Waited. Then pulled out in front of me. And drove at 70. Idiot.

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  Reply # 1432135 21-Nov-2015 12:12
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turnin:
shk292:
turnin:
Understanding Weight transfer and vehicle dynamics is not reserved for the domain of motorsport, nor should it be ,they are fundamentally THE most important things to learn when learning to drive.



Rubbish

The most important thing to learn when driving is the situational awareness and observational skills so that you can anticipate events and avoid any situation where marginal handling and weight transfer are relevant

Getting learners' attention off the clutch and gear lever and onto the road and other users is a good way to achieve this


The fact that you think modes of weight transfer is not an important part of a drivers situational awareness and that weight transfer has marginal effects is concerning. Sorry but you are completely wrong.

People who lose control of cars and make incorrect positioning and handling decisions do so out of two things , adrenalin /fear ( and late visual awareness is part of that ) and their lack of understanding of vehicle dynamics , tyres suspension and weight giving rise to grip and traction variations. (Almost never taught in nz )

There was a driving school in ardmore that develiped and taught learners clutch control faster than any other by getting them to learn clutch control first. Then taught braking with and without abs , then weight transfer modes and the issues with diagonal. Then taught vision techniques and THEN taught road rules.
You have to understand a tool before you concentrate on the craft.


I concur.  Understanding the effect of weight transfer and weight on grip is very important.  Drivers will be doomed to loosing control in their vehicles if they don't understand.




Try my latest project, a Cisco type 5 enable secret password cracker written in javascript!

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  Reply # 1432176 21-Nov-2015 13:32
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joker97: Weight transfer is important at the limits of friction e.g. track/road racing or rallying. But to make use of it you need to feel that limit. Where the entire car set up is in balance. From the chassis to the suspension to the tyres all tuned in and the driver being an extension of the machine.

On the open road there is only one thing to learn about weight transfer 101 for road users.
Brake in a straight line, do all your braking in a straight line, then you may turn. Aka Do not turn when braking hard.


At the limits of friction : agree.
And that's exactly what you achieve when you brake and turn in a emergency situation.

Larger and more rapid movements of weight occur during emergency situations that they do inside race rally vehicles.

Limits are also reached on different tyres at different times , road cambers, water, bumps crests , your above comment is true but its a generalisation. There is much more to learn and drivers need to know what to expect , especially as abs almost encourages drivers to think its ok to brake and turn.

With what info do you use to make decisions eg
Driver in front of you suddenly slows, do you to brake , turn , or a slight combination of both. Or how quickly can one decelerate while turning downhill.

These decisions require understanding and do most definitely require a very close connection between the machine and driver .

Countries that teach this as an integral part of learning to drive as opposed to a bolt on afterthought have half the accident rate that we do , they also have worse conditions, Finland , Sweden , Norway etc.




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  Reply # 1432188 21-Nov-2015 14:21
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I totally agree with you. I thought the idiots who pull out into the open road in front of my 2 tonne van has a long way to go before they can even grasp the understanding of weight transfer and limits of friction at off camber bends. Those guys i thought are beyond saving. But i found it interesting that the Scandinavian countries teach those principles in driving school. Maybe that's why they produce so many rally talents.

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  Reply # 1432191 21-Nov-2015 14:30
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You guys can argue all you like about whether or not a manual transmission is better, but it's all entirely academic if most people aren't able to buy a vehicle that suits their needs with a manual transmission. They simply aren't available on the market unless you're buying a performance car, or something under $20k.

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  Reply # 1432274 21-Nov-2015 16:13
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Leave it turned ON :)


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1432406 21-Nov-2015 20:41
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joker97: . But i found it interesting that the Scandinavian countries teach those principles in driving school. Maybe that's why they produce so many rally talents.


I think so , rallying in Finland is like rugby is here but they seem very disciplined on the roads, i think because of that education they respect how dangerous driving is whereas the guy who pulled out in front of you probably assumes he's safe because he's doing 70. Zero awareness because of false perception of safety.

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  Reply # 1432459 21-Nov-2015 23:40
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turnin: Seriously if you think weight transfer provides only a "minute" advantage in vehicle control when avoidance or slowing is required then you need to question your own understanding.


No, I said that a Manual Transmission only provides a minute advantage over an Automatic Transmission, in terms of controlling weight transfer.  Of course understanding weight transfer and the impact on grip and handling is important, however the assertion that you can only learn or control weight transfer from driving a vehicle with manual transmission is patently false.

Aside from which if having a specific type of transmission really did have a big effect on vehicle safety, one might expect there were studies or statistics to back that up.  I was unable to find any but would certainly be open to further reading if they are out there.

I found one: http://acrs.org.au/files/arsrpe/Why%20drive%20manual%20-%20automatic%20transmission%20improves%20driving.pdf but it's just one smallish study so it's hard to draw too much from it

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  Reply # 1432547 22-Nov-2015 10:55
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Yes , seen that study, sadly it only studied older drivers and the method was to observe them around town , intersections roundabouts etc. Nothing to do with vehicle handling as such.

I've yet to drive an auto that offers predictable and consistent deceleration (or often anything much other than freewheeling) unless you programmatically hold it in gear,even that is not guaranteed with electronics. I'm not sure it's even mechanically possible. A handful of automatic (cost) competition vehicles exist and they are dangerous and pigs to drive for this very reason :)

There are numerous examples of techniques using engine braking ,at varying levels of force to alter vehicle control,from the ice patch method of pushing in the clutch to remove torque from all wheels to aid turning small decelerations during mid corner undulations, fine line control and straight line engine braking to keep a rwd car straight downhill. All having significantly different effects in front , rear and 4wd vehicles with different diff configurations. Most people are unaware of these ,most don't know what behaviour to expect from their vehicle abs, traction control, yaw, stability control, it's not their fault either, they were never taught these things and certainly not to any great extent.

NZTA follows Monash university and vicroads belief that teaching such an understanding causes over confidence and risk taking behaviour but I can demonstrate this is the exception rather than the rule.

Motorcyclists (when not on their bikes-recent study) and Motorsport competitors are statistically safer than other road users due to awareness and skill aqcuisition which really comes from their appreciation of the dangers.

You're welcome to disagree on the automatic issue of course but I've spent a large part of my life teaching drivers to understand vehicle dynamics and I've never yet been able to demonstrate this in an automatic.
I've found over the years that autos, power steering ,abs and electronic interventions albiet great things on the surface , take away the feedback from the vehicle to the driver.

This is a transition period though, I'd say no one will be allowed to drive a car in 15 years time as it will negatively impact the flow of autonomous vehicles that will dominate shortly.

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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1434506 25-Nov-2015 12:28
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A manual clutch provides options in vehicle control (especially in FWDs) that an auto simply doesn't have.

But ... <5% of people would be unable to utilise this capability, and fewer under the pressure of an emergency. 

So beyond motoring enthusiasts, it's academic.

I am glad I can drive a manual but many learners don't have access to one; and if driving instructors had to have manual vehicles it would limit their choices (i.e. increase their costs).







Mike

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