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Reply # 1470205 13-Jan-2016 18:04
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Dratsab:
Jase2985: but how can you prove that? its something that can lead to someone loosing their liscence


Losing their licence... :-)


Dee-daw-dee-daw-dee-daw.... Pull over *now* poster! Grammar police!


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  Reply # 1470239 13-Jan-2016 18:40
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Jase2985:
Geektastic:
Jase2985: how do you issue points via a speed camera If you cant prove who was driving?

my son could be 10 points from being disqualified and I could say it was me driving, there is no proof of that


Easy. The points always go to the car owner unless they can prove someone else was driving.


but how can you prove that? its something that can lead to someone loosing their liscence

guilty until proven innocent, not the way it is suppose to work


It's really simple. Many countries manage to do it and I am sure NZ can do so too.

1) YOU the car owner are responsible for what happens to your car. This includes speeding.

2) The ticket arrives addressed to you. You can fill it is saying "Not me - My wife/son/daughter/neighbour" AND IF YOU LIE YOU COMMIT PERJURY

3) The person you said was driving gets the ticket. They can defend it if they choose and one defence could be "I wasn't driving - he was" in which case the court will decide which of you is a lying toe rag

4) Most modern cameras photograph the driver and passenger. This makes lying a lot harder!





 
 
 
 


gzt

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  Reply # 1470244 13-Jan-2016 18:45
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Imho that regime is so wide open to abuse it is better to ticket the car no demerits and that's that. Tldr; the butler did it.

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  Reply # 1470254 13-Jan-2016 18:57
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Can't help wondering what would happen in court if the driver and passenger had each been wearing a mask of the other's face and denied being the one responsible.





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  Reply # 1470287 13-Jan-2016 19:10
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Rikkitic: Can't help wondering what would happen in court if the driver and passenger had each been wearing a mask of the other's face and denied being the one responsible.



That would so make it all the way to Judge Judy!

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  Reply # 1470306 13-Jan-2016 19:26
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Geektastic:
Jase2985:
Geektastic:
Jase2985: how do you issue points via a speed camera If you cant prove who was driving?

my son could be 10 points from being disqualified and I could say it was me driving, there is no proof of that


Easy. The points always go to the car owner unless they can prove someone else was driving.


but how can you prove that? its something that can lead to someone loosing their liscence

guilty until proven innocent, not the way it is suppose to work


It's really simple. Many countries manage to do it and I am sure NZ can do so too.

1) YOU the car owner are responsible for what happens to your car. This includes speeding.

2) The ticket arrives addressed to you. You can fill it is saying "Not me - My wife/son/daughter/neighbour" AND IF YOU LIE YOU COMMIT PERJURY

3) The person you said was driving gets the ticket. They can defend it if they choose and one defence could be "I wasn't driving - he was" in which case the court will decide which of you is a lying toe rag

4) Most modern cameras photograph the driver and passenger. This makes lying a lot harder!


and how can you prove they lied? there is no practical way to do that.

the letter you currently get requires you to sign to say it wasnt you but also requires a JP/sworn officer etc to also counter sign.

and a photo proves nothing, the people who take the photos and issue the tickets have no clue whos in the car.

demerit points will make it so some of the more dodgy people end up shuffling the points round to people who have less points so they wont end up over the 100 point limit.

adds more administrive overhead to the process, and more cost to the police force who already dont have enough money.

i dont foresee it happening in the near/mid term future

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  Reply # 1470395 13-Jan-2016 21:38
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Rikkitic: Can't help wondering what would happen in court if the driver and passenger had each been wearing a mask of the other's face and denied being the one responsible.



The judge would simply fine both of them for lying to the court I suspect. Possibly even imprison them for perjury. You all seem to think that these things have never been tried! The system works very well.

Combined with the fact that speeding offences will add rapidly to your insurance bill in pretty much every country other than NZ, it becomes clearer why the death rates in NZ are higher than they should be. Bad roads, bad driver education, poor attitude, little or no consequences and so on.

Interesting that so many think that the sensible thing to do is to attempt to find ways to outsmart the law instead of just not speeding....

This is from an article in a UK paper (Note with reference to penalty points (demerit points here) you will lose your licence when you get 12 points, not 100):

"When a car is caught on a speed camera, the police will find out the address of the owner from the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, and send them a Notice of Intended Prosecution (NIP) and a request to provide driver details in the post. The NIP and the request to provide driver details are two different legal documents but the almost always appear on the same piece of paper. If you’re the owner, you’ll receive this, even if you weren’t the one driving at the time.

If that’s the case, you can fill out a part of the NIP which allows you to notify the police of the name and address of the person who was driving at the time. Be aware, however, that doing so falsely is an offence in itself, and can lead to a prison sentence for perverting the course of justice (or, at the very least, a prosecution for failing to provide driver details, which carries a minimum six-point penalty or a disqualification from driving).

If you were the driver at the time, however, and you accept that you were at fault, you send your details back, at which point the police will either send you an an offer to attend a speed awareness course, a Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN) or a court summons, depending on how fast you were going.

If you agree that you were driving but you dispute that you were speeding then you should reply to the police admitting that you were driving. Then if the police offer a speed awareness course or a fixed penalty you should not accept. The police will send a postal requisition (used to be called a court summons) and you'll have to take your case to the magistrates.

If you are caught by an officer in person, however, he or she will either issue you with an FPN, or advise you that you will receive a court summons, depending on the severity of your offence. You don’t have to accept the FPN – indeed, you have 28 days to reject it – but if you do reject it, you will have to go to court to plead your case. "

Followed by (double the numbers to get approx NZ$ figures for the fines) 

"What’s the penalty?

An FPN for speeding will result in three points on your driving licence and a £100 fine.

However, if your speed was sufficiently high to land you in court – or if you reject the FPN – the penalties could be much worse; the maximum fine for speeding is £1,000 (or £2,500 on the motorway), and your licence could be revoked."







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  Reply # 1470419 13-Jan-2016 21:59
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What is in the "speed awareness course" option and how does that work in practice?

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  Reply # 1470480 13-Jan-2016 23:38
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Jase2985:
paulchinnz:
Anyone know what error is associated with speed cameras e.g. 1%? 5%?


next to nothing at all

"Accuracy better than 1 Kmh for all modes" for the Stalker DSR

https://www.fyi.org.nz/request/speed_measuring_equipment
down the bottom there are some links to manuals and publications


The Police trot out the local ESR?? certification that the Stalker is accurate to 1km/h. The manufacturer's claim is for " +1, -2 mph stationary, ±2 mph moving +2 / –3 km/h stationary, ±3 km/h moving" The difference may be explained in the specs for Stalker's photo unit where the accuracy of the radar section is quoted as 1km/h in LABORATORY conditions and 3km/h in operating conditions.

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  Reply # 1470501 14-Jan-2016 06:52
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So you could be fined if you were driving at 102kph.


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  Reply # 1470504 14-Jan-2016 07:25
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frankv: So you could be fined if you were driving at 102kph.



You could. You could also be fined going at 70. But in both cases, they won't fine you. You have more chance of getting fined dropping a mate off at Auckland Uni.

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  Reply # 1470525 14-Jan-2016 08:55
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Bung:
Jase2985:
paulchinnz:
Anyone know what error is associated with speed cameras e.g. 1%? 5%?


next to nothing at all

"Accuracy better than 1 Kmh for all modes" for the Stalker DSR

https://www.fyi.org.nz/request/speed_measuring_equipment
down the bottom there are some links to manuals and publications


The Police trot out the local ESR?? certification that the Stalker is accurate to 1km/h. The manufacturer's claim is for " +1, -2 mph stationary, ±2 mph moving +2 / –3 km/h stationary, ±3 km/h moving" The difference may be explained in the specs for Stalker's photo unit where the accuracy of the radar section is quoted as 1km/h in LABORATORY conditions and 3km/h in operating conditions.


Interesting thanks. I was under the impression that for most measurement systems, error is a % rather than absolute value so e.g. 2% would translate into errors of 0.2 km/h and 2 km/h at speeds 10 and 100 km/h, respectively. This makes more sense to me than e.g. absolute 3 km/h for all speeds, which would suggest pretty large error at lower speeds e.g. 30% at 10 km/h. But then I don't know much about speed measurement science.
The other factor is that car speedos aren't necessarily well calibrated to e.g. wheel diameter.




Circumspice.

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  Reply # 1470566 14-Jan-2016 09:43
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You dont need a Drivers license to own a Car so  dermerits to the owner would have no effect on them, fines are better. You can use a birth certificate to rego a owner of a car the people at the vinz center just glance at them and check if the name you filled in matches and are rushed at busy times to really examine it to check if its real ID.



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  Reply # 1470575 14-Jan-2016 09:58
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Also interesting is that it's not likely to be absolute. Measurement tends to be statistical... e.g. 95% of readings will be within 3kph of what the actual speed is. There will always be some outliers where some combination of speed, RF noise, reflections, interference, etc causes a spurious reading.

I wonder what percentage (or how many Std Deviations) actually lie within the +/-3kph range.

I also wonder how that varies with distance... at short range with a strong return, I'd expect to get a much more accurate reading than at a distance where the S/N ratio is marginal.


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  Reply # 1470614 14-Jan-2016 10:38
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gzt: What is in the "speed awareness course" option and how does that work in practice?


You can read about that here

In essence a 4 hour course that costs you the same as the penalty (around $225 NZ equivalent) and means you do not get the penalty points.

You still have to disclose the speeding offence to your insurer and it is still likely to increase your annual premium.





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