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  Reply # 1470616 14-Jan-2016 10:44
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Geektastic: 

Interesting that so many think that the sensible thing to do is to attempt to find ways to outsmart the law instead of just not speeding....
have to take your case to the magistrates.



I think part of the problem is perception. Often, the law is an ass. Using penalties to correct driver behaviour is necessarily a blunt instrument, but it is also often incompetently applied by the authorities. A good example is the many, many instances where a 30 km/h roadworks limit is left in place long after it is needed, and sometimes when it is not needed at all. As a result, drivers stop taking these notices seriously and tragedies can and do happen on the rare occasions when the sign actually means what it says.

In other cases, drivers have their own perception of what is an appropriate speed for the conditions. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are not. But when the authorities do not live up to their responsibility to set reasonable limits and adjust them as necessary, it is hard to blame drivers for failing to respect them. The police act like the law is a one-way street, and in a sense it is, but in a larger sense they and other authorities also have a moral duty to ensure that law enforcement is seen to be fair and reasonable by those who get caught. Yes, a few will always feel hard done by but I am talking about normal people who can tell when they are in the wrong and accept it.

I would like to know what the statistics are for speed crashes within 10 km/h of the limit. I suspect, but don't know, that most serious crashes occur at much higher speeds. In that case, ticketing someone for going 4 or 10 km/h over the limit isn't going to make much difference. Oh, right. Isn't that the situation we have now?
 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1470617 14-Jan-2016 10:44
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Geektastic:
gzt: What is in the "speed awareness course" option and how does that work in practice?


You can read about that here

In essence a 4 hour course that costs you the same as the penalty (around $225 NZ equivalent) and means you do not get the penalty points.

You still have to disclose the speeding offence to your insurer and it is still likely to increase your annual premium.


There is a very easy,  non intrusive way to avoid all this that actually saves money as well




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1470641 14-Jan-2016 11:08
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Rikkitic:
Geektastic: 

Interesting that so many think that the sensible thing to do is to attempt to find ways to outsmart the law instead of just not speeding....
have to take your case to the magistrates.



I think part of the problem is perception. Often, the law is an ass. Using penalties to correct driver behaviour is necessarily a blunt instrument, but it is also often incompetently applied by the authorities. A good example is the many, many instances where a 30 km/h roadworks limit is left in place long after it is needed, and sometimes when it is not needed at all. As a result, drivers stop taking these notices seriously and tragedies can and do happen on the rare occasions when the sign actually means what it says.

In other cases, drivers have their own perception of what is an appropriate speed for the conditions. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are not. But when the authorities do not live up to their responsibility to set reasonable limits and adjust them as necessary, it is hard to blame drivers for failing to respect them. The police act like the law is a one-way street, and in a sense it is, but in a larger sense they and other authorities also have a moral duty to ensure that law enforcement is seen to be fair and reasonable by those who get caught. Yes, a few will always feel hard done by but I am talking about normal people who can tell when they are in the wrong and accept it.

I would like to know what the statistics are for speed crashes within 10 km/h of the limit. I suspect, but don't know, that most serious crashes occur at much higher speeds. In that case, ticketing someone for going 4 or 10 km/h over the limit isn't going to make much difference. Oh, right. Isn't that the situation we have now?
 



I agree the law is sometimes an ass. However, it is not up to you or I to simply decide that we will select which ones we obey, is it? If we do not like it, we must resort to lobbying governments and MP's.

Sometimes we can take direct action - but doing so by ignoring speed limits places others at risk (mainly because they are not expecting traffic to be doing speeds in excess of the limit so their behaviour will be predicated on that) so you can't really take direct action that way in this case.





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  Reply # 1470643 14-Jan-2016 11:10
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MikeB4:
Geektastic:
gzt: What is in the "speed awareness course" option and how does that work in practice?


You can read about that here

In essence a 4 hour course that costs you the same as the penalty (around $225 NZ equivalent) and means you do not get the penalty points.

You still have to disclose the speeding offence to your insurer and it is still likely to increase your annual premium.


There is a very easy,  non intrusive way to avoid all this that actually saves money as well


No argument from me there, I assure you.

I even have an audible 'bong' in my car that goes off at 95!





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  Reply # 1470645 14-Jan-2016 11:11
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Geektastic:
MikeB4:
Geektastic:
gzt: What is in the "speed awareness course" option and how does that work in practice?


You can read about that here

In essence a 4 hour course that costs you the same as the penalty (around $225 NZ equivalent) and means you do not get the penalty points.

You still have to disclose the speeding offence to your insurer and it is still likely to increase your annual premium.


There is a very easy,  non intrusive way to avoid all this that actually saves money as well


No argument from me there, I assure you.

I even have an audible 'bong' in my car that goes off at 95!


It is going to be interesting to see how many drivers follow the rules for the new smart highway system for the Wellington urban motorway




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1470711 14-Jan-2016 12:06
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Geektastic:
MikeB4:
Geektastic:
gzt: What is in the "speed awareness course" option and how does that work in practice?


You can read about that here

In essence a 4 hour course that costs you the same as the penalty (around $225 NZ equivalent) and means you do not get the penalty points.

You still have to disclose the speeding offence to your insurer and it is still likely to increase your annual premium.


There is a very easy,  non intrusive way to avoid all this that actually saves money as well


No argument from me there, I assure you.

I even have an audible 'bong' in my car that goes off at 95!


you do realise that your 95 bong is more likely to be about 90kph actual speed

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  Reply # 1470714 14-Jan-2016 12:12
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Geektastic: 

I agree the law is sometimes an ass. However, it is not up to you or I to simply decide that we will select which ones we obey, is it? If we do not like it, we must resort to lobbying governments and MP's.

Sometimes we can take direct action - but doing so by ignoring speed limits places others at risk (mainly because they are not expecting traffic to be doing speeds in excess of the limit so their behaviour will be predicated on that) so you can't really take direct action that way in this case.


I don't think that anyone (certainly not me) is advocating *ignoring* speed limits. Speed limits are (usually) a good approximation to a safe speed, and as you say, people have expectations of other traffic.

But I think it is up to the Police to not behave like asses in enforcing unreasonable laws.

As I've previously pointed out, it is impossible (practically speaking) to drive a car without breaking the law -- the law says that you must ensure a car is up to WoF standards before you drive it. It's not reasonable to expect that you check that your tail lights and horn work every time before you drive, and everyone breaks this law. A (reasonable) cop won't give you a ticket for a single failed tail light. They have discretion. By removing the discretion for speeds between 105-109kph, Police management are behaving like asses.

FWIW, back in the 1970s the speed limit was lowered to 80kph to save petrol. Despite ongoing lobbying by the AA and others, the Govt only increased the limit to 100kph when the average open road speed had crept up to 103kph (at which point the average dropped to 102kph). It was only because the law was widely ignored that the limit was increased.

Similarly, consider the whole gay rights thing... for decades homosexuality was illegal, but now it is not only legal, but something that the Govt (via marriage) sanctions. When did homosexuality suddenly become "right"? Was it ever "wrong"? Until the law was repealed, are you saying that gays should have behaved as if they were heterosexuals? And what caused the law to change? Was it lobbying the government and MPs? Or was it that the law was being ignored, and exposed as the donkey that it was?

So I think it *is* up to us to decide what laws we will obey. The Govt is not some mystical divinely-appointed all-knowing body... it's a way for people to collectively decide how to live together. Whilst the Govt and laws that we have are the best we can come up with (and a great deal better than many), they won't always be right (although usually about right).


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  Reply # 1470718 14-Jan-2016 12:14
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Speaking of asses... it seems that the plural is acceptable by GZ's filter, but singular is not.

Another draconian, non-thinking silliness!


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  Reply # 1470817 14-Jan-2016 13:35
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frankv:
Geektastic: 

I agree the law is sometimes an ass. However, it is not up to you or I to simply decide that we will select which ones we obey, is it? If we do not like it, we must resort to lobbying governments and MP's.

Sometimes we can take direct action - but doing so by ignoring speed limits places others at risk (mainly because they are not expecting traffic to be doing speeds in excess of the limit so their behaviour will be predicated on that) so you can't really take direct action that way in this case.


I don't think that anyone (certainly not me) is advocating *ignoring* speed limits. Speed limits are (usually) a good approximation to a safe speed, and as you say, people have expectations of other traffic.

But I think it is up to the Police to not behave like asses in enforcing unreasonable laws.

As I've previously pointed out, it is impossible (practically speaking) to drive a car without breaking the law -- the law says that you must ensure a car is up to WoF standards before you drive it. It's not reasonable to expect that you check that your tail lights and horn work every time before you drive, and everyone breaks this law. A (reasonable) cop won't give you a ticket for a single failed tail light. They have discretion. By removing the discretion for speeds between 105-109kph, Police management are behaving like asses.

FWIW, back in the 1970s the speed limit was lowered to 80kph to save petrol. Despite ongoing lobbying by the AA and others, the Govt only increased the limit to 100kph when the average open road speed had crept up to 103kph (at which point the average dropped to 102kph). It was only because the law was widely ignored that the limit was increased.

Similarly, consider the whole gay rights thing... for decades homosexuality was illegal, but now it is not only legal, but something that the Govt (via marriage) sanctions. When did homosexuality suddenly become "right"? Was it ever "wrong"? Until the law was repealed, are you saying that gays should have behaved as if they were heterosexuals? And what caused the law to change? Was it lobbying the government and MPs? Or was it that the law was being ignored, and exposed as the donkey that it was?

So I think it *is* up to us to decide what laws we will obey. The Govt is not some mystical divinely-appointed all-knowing body... it's a way for people to collectively decide how to live together. Whilst the Govt and laws that we have are the best we can come up with (and a great deal better than many), they won't always be right (although usually about right).



The Government is elected to govern. Don't like it then buy an island and live there.

Just think about what you are saying, the chaos and carnage that would ensue if people decide I don't agree with stop signs, I don't agree with keeping left of driving on the left,  I don't believe murder should be illegal.




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


Onward
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  Reply # 1470820 14-Jan-2016 13:36
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freitasm: *sigh*

Think it's draconian? 




It's shocking :P




Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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  Reply # 1470826 14-Jan-2016 13:39
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Well, I am the BDFL here, and I make the rules, draconian or not. Not happy? Register your own domain and establish your own set of rules there.

That's all.





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  Reply # 1470833 14-Jan-2016 13:46
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freitasm: Well, I am the BDFL here, and I make the rules, draconian or not. Not happy? Register your own domain and establish your own set of rules there.

That's all.



Ouch!



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  Reply # 1470834 14-Jan-2016 13:48
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MikeB4: 

Just think about what you are saying, the chaos and carnage that would ensue if people decide I don't agree with stop signs, I don't agree with keeping left of driving on the left,  I don't believe murder should be illegal.


We already have that. They are called gangs.





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


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  Reply # 1470838 14-Jan-2016 13:50
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frankv:
freitasm: Well, I am the BDFL here, and I make the rules, draconian or not. Not happy? Register your own domain and establish your own set of rules there.

That's all.



Ouch!



Don't feel hard done. These are the basic rules here and everyone abides. You said the rules are draconian and silly. I pointed out an alternative.







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