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226 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1978921 16-Mar-2018 23:24
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A picture tells a thousand words.  The red dot is Nissan's estimated battery capacity remaining after 5 years.

 

 

 


Circumspice
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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1978943 17-Mar-2018 08:33
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happyfunball:

 

Flip the Fleet takes odometer readings into account.  Its a scientific paper, well put together and submitted for peer review.  

 

 

 

 

The findings are plausible and useful to take into account for anyone considering a 30/40 kWh Leaf.

 

However, whether long distances with fast charging happened more frequently with 30 kWh than 24 kWh Leafs isn't easy to determine from their data without making more assumptions. Yes, odometer was taken into account, and even fast charging, but I can't see how the following hypothetical scenarios can be distinguished in their data:

 

a) 30 kWh driven 500 km a week comprising30 km per weekday and 350 km on Saturdays with 2-3 fast charging events on Saturday only

 

b) 24 kWh driven 500 km a week comprising 70 km per day with 1 fast charging event every 2-3 days

 

I submit monthly data to flipthefleet, and number of trips isn't part of the data entry.

 

 

 

Anyway, bottom line, agree with @happyfunball, I'd be very wary of buying 30 kWh and 40 kWh Leafs.


Circumspice
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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1978944 17-Mar-2018 08:35
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And by the way, that published paper isn't peer reviewed (https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201803.0122/v1) - all well and good if it has been submitted for review, but the paper resulting from that hasn't appeared yet as far as I know.


226 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1978957 17-Mar-2018 09:53
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paulchinnz:

And by the way, that published paper isn't peer reviewed (https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201803.0122/v1) - all well and good if it has been submitted for review, but the paper resulting from that hasn't appeared yet as far as I know.



So you think the battery degradation is a result of peoples driving patterns? On radioNZ the interviewed scientist said the likelihood of that was ‘vanishingly small’.

Circumspice
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  Reply # 1978965 17-Mar-2018 10:30
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I'm just keeping an open mind regarding these data as they don't examine the potential covariates very well. The totality of data ie including published elsewhere may well strongly support the conclusion that driving patterns aren't a significant covariate of battery degradation, but I don't think these data alone from flipthefleet justify that conclusion.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1979019 17-Mar-2018 13:33
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If the SoH of the batteries on 30 kWh Leaf EVs really is declining at a much faster rate than buyers expected, it would be interesting to know what legal remedies buyers of these vehicles have.

 

Would the car dealers who sold these vehicles second-hand to people in New Zealand have any liability? Don't some car dealers guarantee EV batteries for a certain length of time? After all, we do have a Consumer Guarantees Act.

 

Would a class action against Nissan Japan be likely to succeed?

 

If it had been possible to buy 30 kWh Leafs new from Nissan, I wonder whether Nissan would recall the cars and replace the batteries free of charge?


226 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1979020 17-Mar-2018 13:42
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frednz:

 

If the SoH of the batteries on 30 kWh Leaf EVs really is declining at a much faster rate than buyers expected, it would be interesting to know what legal remedies buyers of these vehicles have.

 

Would the car dealers who sold these vehicles second-hand to people in New Zealand have any liability? Don't some car dealers guarantee EV batteries for a certain length of time? After all, we do have a Consumer Guarantees Act.

 

Would a class action against Nissan Japan be likely to succeed?

 

If it had been possible to buy 30 kWh Leafs new from Nissan, I wonder whether Nissan would recall the cars and replace the batteries free of charge?

 

 

Nissan offers a warranty in the US, its 4 bars or 70% SOH within 5 years.  At that point they replace the battery in the car, and there are quite a few that have had it done, if the Nissan forums are anything to go by.  There are even more with less than 4 bars lost who are complaining and want a replacement.

 

There is no such warranty in NZ offered by Nissan, but the dealer is bound by the CGA.  If you purchased a car thinking Nissans claims of 80% capacity left after 5 years would hold true, and you need that range, then the car is no longer fit-for-purpose.

 

There is also third party battery insurance out there (Autosure EV policy) but I imagine that didn't have many takers since they very vaguely specify what they do and don't cover.  I bought it when I got the car and I've filed a claim.

 

I think if its not a safety issue, you would find it hard to sue Nissan, as they didn't take your money.  The responsibility goes to the seller, but they are a victim here too.

 

 


IcI

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1979078 17-Mar-2018 17:51
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frednz: ... Would the car dealers who sold these vehicles second-hand to people in New Zealand have any liability? Don't some car dealers guarantee EV batteries for a certain length of time? After all, we do have a Consumer Guarantees Act.

 

Would a class action against Nissan Japan be likely to succeed? ...

 

The Consumer magazine article can help you with those questions.


IcI

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  Reply # 1979082 17-Mar-2018 18:03
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paulchinnz: ... Perhaps 30 kWh owners are more likely (than 24 kWh owners) to go for long distance drives with fast charging and ergo stress their batteries with higher temperatures.

 

Maybe. For me, I'd still drive the car that distance because now the 24kWh Leaf is my primary vehicle.

 

I also drive ±2500km per month with 7-9 fast charges a week. I just have to plan where I stop & recharge.


915 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1979171 17-Mar-2018 20:02
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IcI:

 

frednz: ... Would the car dealers who sold these vehicles second-hand to people in New Zealand have any liability? Don't some car dealers guarantee EV batteries for a certain length of time? After all, we do have a Consumer Guarantees Act.

 

Would a class action against Nissan Japan be likely to succeed? ...

 

The Consumer magazine article can help you with those questions.

 

 

Thanks for that, "Consumer" considers that owners of 30 kWh Nissan Leaf EVs have rights under the Consumer Guarantees Act (CGA) and that dealers might even have to give a refund or at least provide compensation for any drop in value of these EVs.

 

Now I wonder if dealers are aware that this might be the case, can you imagine them providing compensation to buyers who have suffered loss for this situation?

 

I wonder whether dealers will continue selling 30 kWh Leafs, or alternatively whether this situation may result in substantially reduced prices for these EVs?

 

Consumer goes on to suggest that, if you can't get anywhere with the dealer, Nissan also has responsibilities under the Consumer Guarantees Act. Now, I wonder whether Nissan sees it this way, after all I don't think they have sold any new 30 kWh Nissans in NZ, they are all second-hand imports.

 

The other thing to consider is whether informed buyers would now take the risk of buying a 30 kWh Leaf?

 

And should dealers now warn buyers of 30 kWh Leafs of the potential problem with the battery life of these EVs?

 

 


1104 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1979233 17-Mar-2018 23:56
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I've raised question already to authors of that report: "Have the Frame Numbers being analyzed"?

 

"What If" there is a "defective" batch of batteries being manufactured within a period? Or "bad" ones are scattered all over?

 

Too many IMO recalls of different nature have become known in the last few years in the car industry. For example owners who are tired of waiting for Takata Airbags replacements are currently deactivating passenger airbags in Japan and Authorities in New Zealand are well aware.Compliance centers know what to look at. But battery capacity does not impact safety directly, hence could slip under the radar even if the info is out there somewhere...

 

"What if" there is a batch of Leafs manufactured within some period which do have those "defective" batteries, which are now people are trying to get rid of, but we do not know that yet?

 

What makes me think so is that there were information about Quality Control related scandal in Nissan (company wide) not long ago. No details were shared what components or parts and what models were impacted. All that was mentioned is "shortage of quality control inspectors".  





Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair 

 

 


1104 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1979236 18-Mar-2018 00:06
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frednz:

 

If the SoH of the batteries on 30 kWh Leaf EVs really is declining ...

 

 

It would be interesting to put 3-5 of those "degraded" batteries from the report to test remaining capacity using my Battery Capacity Analyzer. For doing that all I need is couple of cables from wrecked Leaf with mating receptacles from the battery pack. To make an extension rig to put Analyser as a man-in-the-middle. Few people I am aware off are keeping cables from wrecks dreaming of some future "projects". I have a lot of High Voltage 400V DC cables, connectors, HV 400V DC Relays and 125A DC fuses which I can give in exchange if they need for their Solar or whatever.





Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair 

 

 


27 posts

Geek
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  Reply # 1979360 18-Mar-2018 15:45
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Just signed up with my 30Kw Leaf.

 

It appears that I'm sitting on the upper end with my SoH of 90% with a Leaf manufactured in Jan-2016 (2.1 years) and imported from UK in May 2017.
Charging up to 100% at home about 5 times a week for my daily commute and have only 59 QCs and 1618 L1/L2s. Unsure how realistic L1/L2 number is as I had only 380 L1/L2s when I got it. Couldn't have charged it 1,250 times since as that would count for 4 times a day or so. Anyone else also seeing skewed L1/L2 numbers in Leaf Spy?

 

I believe the SoH decline may be slightly increased due to the relative hot summer we had this year. I've learned that it was very easy on those hot summer days to heat up the batteries significantly (8-9 bars) after just one or two QCs and driving on the highway while I had no battery heat problem with the same trips in winter or spring last year.

Wondering whether it is possible to retrofit some active cooling for the batteries? I believe the Nissan EV300 has it? Thought I read that somewhere. 

 

Or do we just have to refrain from charging with QC when temperatures are around 25 degrees or higher? Maybe we need more L1/L2 charges for those hot days?
Thinking of it cooling the batteries may decrease the range though as the cooling will take energy. Tough one.

 

 

 

 


402 posts

Ultimate Geek
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84 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1979503 19-Mar-2018 06:48
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So... instead of all the doom & gloom about degrading batteries, I was wondering if anyone has any updates about modifying Leafs to use Android Auto or Apple Car Play?

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