Nissan LEAF - General

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Reply # 1981262 21-Mar-2018 22:45

afe66:

Surely since Nissan didn't officially sell Leafs here it does seem a little unrealistic to expect them to do anything under our laws.

From a pr point of view they might do something or they might just abandon launching here.

Yes and no; any losses they incur as a result of having to honour a warranty for a Japanese car would surely be charged back to Nissan Japan, just as the profits would be sent back there had they sold the cars here in the first place. Other than the inconvenience, it needn't cost Nissan NZ anything.

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SaltyNZ

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Reply # 1981269 21-Mar-2018 23:03

frednz:
So in what circumstances would Nissan NZ, or NZ car dealers be legally liable to provide a replacement battery for imported used 30 kWh Leafs when the words "only an estimate" and "could be significantly lower" are clearly stated in the Owner's Manual?

When 68% of vehicles are reaching 80% in 5 years but yours is not, then “only an estimate” applies. If yours makes it to 4.5 years, then “only an estimate” applies.

If nearly 100% are aging out 3 years early, then “only an estimate” doesn’t really cut it. If I wanted a car I could only drive for about 50,000km before it was useless, I would’ve spent $2000 on an old Corolla.

At least there is no immediate need to panic. There is plenty of time for a solution to be worked out that doesn’t involve strangling the NZ EV fleet to death by having hundreds of cars get batteries replaced by dealers for CGA claims.

The problem is Nissan’s globally. There is no reason to think that it is somehow only the ones that end up in NZ that are having the problem. It’s probably just that this is the first public largeish scale study to demonstrate it.

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dirtbag

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Reply # 1981292 22-Mar-2018 00:31

SaltyNZ:

When I bought it? 12. Now, the top bar goes off and on.

@SaltyNZ: is that bar 12 going on and off or bar 11? If it is bar 12 and your LeafSpy reports SOH=78.23% then there would appear to be a discrepancy between what the dash board is indicating and Leaf Spy is reading as we are told to expect loss of the 12th capacity bar around 85%.

I'm still it hard to believe that we here in NZ are alone on this issue. Our sales numbers are far smaller than the markets we source our cars from so I would have expected other owners world wide to have been experiencing similar issues and we would have seen it on blogs ,forums and YouTube videos. Bad news travels much faster than good these days and any hint of a problem such as this would be evident in all markets not just ours.

I don't think the effect of ambient temperature is as much of a problem as has been speculated. Even after being parked outside on some of Auckland's warmer days this summer we have only observed the battery temperature indicated on the dash gain one additional segment by the end of the day. In contrast a single rapid charge of 14 to 16kwh would increase the temperature reading by 3 segments. Warm days certainly limit amount of heat that can be dissipated from the battery container and therefore the number of rapid charges the car will cope with but I don't believe they alone is the cause.Also if temperature was contributing to this degradation owners such as @Linuxlover who drive long distances and rapid charge regularly would be experiencing a far higher rate of decline than owners who mainly use L1/L2 chargers and this would have shown up in the survey.

One thing I am curious about is that now our cars are outside of their countries of origin and they are no longer able to connect back to Nissan could this be a factor in why we are experiencing this issue while other owners apparently are not. On our car this is evident by a small icon of a car with a red line through it in the top right corner of the infotainment display which is referred to in the manual we received as being related to the Connect system. I don't believe for a second that the Nissan Connect system is purely so customers can connect to their cars and turn the Air Conditioning on and off and all those data connections must cost a fair bit each month so there has to be a good reason for it to exist. I'm guessing but I would say that the "Connect" system also allows Nissan to track the usage and monitor how the batteries are holding up under general use. It could if required trigger additional conditioning routines if it were observed that a greater rate of degradation was occurring in a particular vehicle to improve the SOH and reduce warranty liability. Its drawing a long bow I know but unless other owners in other markets are experiencing similar degradation in their batteries we would have to accept that there is some other factor that is damaging the batteries or influencing the information we are receiving from our cars.

Nissan no doubt hold the key to this problem but until they start talking we are all pretty much in the dark. I'd be interested to know if Nissan used the same battery chemistry in the 2018 Leaf. If they did it would tend to indicate that they were happy with the information they would have been receiving from the 30kwh variants which makes this issue even more perplexing.

GV27

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Reply # 1981304 22-Mar-2018 06:59

SaltyNZ:

GV27:

Still Nissan's fault for designing a car that looks bollocks in anything but black or dark grey!

I didn't get mine because it looked cool, but damn if the 2018 model isn't far less goofy.

It does, it's a relief to have some sharp lines on it. Mind you I would be happier still if it more closely resembled an Integrale which is about as boxy as it gets. But at least this model doesn't look like someone tried to draw a fart.

leaflearner

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Reply # 1981318 22-Mar-2018 08:31

dirtbag:

... hard to believe that we here in NZ are alone on this issue. Our sales numbers are far smaller than the markets we source our cars from so I would have expected other owners world wide to have been experiencing similar issues and we would have seen it on blogs ,forums and YouTube videos. Bad news travels much faster than good these days and any hint of a problem such as this would be evident in all markets not just ours.

Have you checked out the US Leaf forums and blogs? For example, the My Nissan Leaf .com forum has a thread headed "2016-2017 model year 30kWh bar losers and capacity losses".

happyfunball

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Reply # 1981328 22-Mar-2018 08:56

zenourn:

We currently don't collect car colour but it easy to get from registration data (see https://www.carjam.co.nz/). You'd want to convert each colour into a quantitative value of solar energy absorbed per unit area per unit of time.

It is likely there will be some small variation in the temperature of the battery explained by the colour of the car but it will be very likely too noisy to be a useful predictor. What we really need is continuous measurements of battery temperature.

Weber State University does teardowns of EV batteries and they compare the Leaf to the Bolt, saying the Leaf battery (2018) will not last nearly as long. The professor in this video specifically points out the cabin temperature of the Leaf is the predictor of battery temperature and longevity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=444&v=WlxBOJrEKAo

The many warnings given by Nissan about battery longevity for the 2018 Leaf are not present in my 2016 user manual, so I think they are aware of some issues.

With all due respect, I think you may be underestimating the effect of cabin temperature on battery longevity.

SaltyNZ

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Reply # 1981344 22-Mar-2018 09:49

dirtbag:

@SaltyNZ: is that bar 12 going on and off or bar 11? If it is bar 12 and your LeafSpy reports SOH=78.23% then there would appear to be a discrepancy between what the dash board is indicating and Leaf Spy is reading as we are told to expect loss of the 12th capacity bar around 85%.

Bar 12, definitely.

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happyfunball

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Reply # 1981351 22-Mar-2018 10:08

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dirtbag:

@SaltyNZ: is that bar 12 going on and off or bar 11? If it is bar 12 and your LeafSpy reports SOH=78.23% then there would appear to be a discrepancy between what the dash board is indicating and Leaf Spy is reading as we are told to expect loss of the 12th capacity bar around 85%.

I'm still it hard to believe that we here in NZ are alone on this issue. Our sales numbers are far smaller than the markets we source our cars from so I would have expected other owners world wide to have been experiencing similar issues and we would have seen it on blogs ,forums and YouTube videos. Bad news travels much faster than good these days and any hint of a problem such as this would be evident in all markets not just ours.

The 30kwh cars lose bars differently than the 24kwh models. Its not at 85% for the first bar. I lost my first bar at 82% last week, I'm just over 81% now so its still falling rapidly with a steady driving pattern and no high temperatures.

The US Nissan forums show many grumpy users of these cars with 3 bars lost, waiting for the 4th bar to drop so they can get a new, free battery under warranty. People with less than 4 bars lost can get a new battery at a reduced price (I think half price). Complaints from countries with warranties will be limited online, since Nissan addresses those issues to ensure people aren't put out financially. Its also common to lease EV's overseas, which takes the sting out of it. The general advice in the US is to lease a Nissan EV, don't buy one!

So unfortunately none of this helps us 30kwh losers in NZ.

Linuxluver

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Reply # 1981378 22-Mar-2018 10:54

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paulchinnz:

Pluses and minuses both ways. Better reporting by secondary sources of information (like Consumer in this case) always desirable. I'd rather have all the available data as a potential buyer. Getting a 30 kWh Leaf currently involves pretty serious money for many people (~$30k) - flipthefleet data might save some potential buyers from being burned with their first experience of purchasing an EV. If nothing else, I'd suggest potential buyers who really want a Leaf right now get a 'cheap' 24 kWh (from reputable seller!) to tide them over the next few years until dust settles re 30 kWh/ 40 kWh batteries. Unless of course money isn't really an issue...

Having all the data is best, though most people can't make sense of the data because they don't have the knowledge and experience to put it in context.

In my own case, I tend to be an early adopter and don't worry much about the loss of value / depreciation going forward. My aim is to get into the new paradigm to understand and experience it. That has huge value to me.

My own 30kWh LEAF has been a data contributor to Flip the Fleet since December '16. It's been data from Leafspy, too, so reasonably precise.

My own battery is 2 years and 4 months old. It's now 90% SoH. I've driven 62k km.

So far, so good. But if the battery crashes tomorrow I'll chalk it up to experience and buy a better EV next time. I'm pretty clear on why (zero emissions and climate change).

The cost of an EV is immediately significant, but from a longer term point of view we already can't afford to keep driving billions of ICE vehicles. The logic at play here for people not doing anything is akin to carrying on cutting down the rain forest or they will be out of work.

They are going to be out of work anyway.....and nothing to replace it.

So the idea that might put people off, in one level, feels like people holding their breath a bit longer because when they do finally breath the air might be better.

If they don't suffocate in the meantime.

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gulfa

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Reply # 1981382 22-Mar-2018 10:58

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Its good to see comments like Steves I agree with what he says It also interesting to see The KMs he has done related to battery health Its reassuring for many of us.

happyfunball

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Reply # 1981383 22-Mar-2018 11:01

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gulfa:

Its good to see comments like Steves I agree with what he says It also interesting to see The KMs he has done related to battery health Its reassuring for many of us.

Yes, and the FlipTheFleet data, and other sources of information online all support this.

Time is what degrades the batteries the most, not distance travelled. Thats great news for people who drive a lot and are spending a lot on petrol now, its practically a no-brainer.

Linuxluver

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Reply # 1981451 22-Mar-2018 13:03

leaflearner:

"Nissan has already banned new replacement battery exports to NZ, what would their response be to that kind of law?"

See John Manley's response on the 30kWh battery problem which I made a few moments before happyfunball posted his reply on this topic. I suspect Nissan will be keeping us waiting a while. I wrote for advice from an official Nissan NZ dealership in January. Their manager said: "I will forward your email to our service/technical department as I do not have the specific knowledge to address your concerns appropriately. They will come back to you regarding your concerns." The service/technical department have failed to "come back" to me in any way whatsoever. Total silence!!

Nissan will ignore people unless and until legislation says they can't.

This is true of pretty much any business.

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Linuxluver

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Reply # 1981453 22-Mar-2018 13:04

leaflearner:

Hi, happyfunball. The dealership was City Nissan, Takapuna, Auckland, from whom I purchased my Pulsar many years ago but who were, of course, unable to help me to upgrade to an EV. For this I had to work through an independent registered dealer. Please let us all know what Nissan Wellington (Gazley) are able to find. I suspect there are regrets all round about this situation. You have to sympathize somewhat with Nissan NZ's approach in abandoning EVs. They couldn't compete on price with late-model Leaf imports, those cars' original purchase prices having been subsidised, I understand, by governments willing to support EV adoption in a way not countenanced by NZ Government.

Go to Manakau Nissan. The Takapuna branch is not famed for being helpful.

Nissan NZ only ever sold left-over Aussie 2011/12 LEAFs that had baked in the sun for several years. They have never sold a new 2013 or later LEAF.

True, the National government wasn't going to provide any inventives around EVs because they didn't care even a tiny bit about emissions of any kind or climate change. Their record on that could not be more clear. VW was able to sell it's lying deisel vehicles here becasue we don't actually have any emissions standards, at all, of any kind...and absolutely no testing regime whatever.

NZ is so far behind the play on any kind of vehicle emissions control or standards is utterly pathetic.

Go watch diesel vehicles of all kinds pulling up a long hill.......a huge proportion will be spewing clouds of cancer-causing black smoke......not to mention the carbon.

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Linuxluver

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Reply # 1981456 22-Mar-2018 13:11

SaltyNZ:

Just got home, and my OBD dongle has arrived. LeafSpy reports SOH=78.23% for 16,653km. It was 92% when I bought it at 11,000km. That's ... more degradation than I had expected.

How long ago?

Also....have you calibrated the leafspy app correctly in the settings?

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Linuxluver

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Reply # 1981459 22-Mar-2018 13:16

SaltyNZ:

dirtbag:

@SaltyNZ: is that bar 12 going on and off or bar 11? If it is bar 12 and your LeafSpy reports SOH=78.23% then there would appear to be a discrepancy between what the dash board is indicating and Leaf Spy is reading as we are told to expect loss of the 12th capacity bar around 85%.

Bar 12, definitely.

Sounds like the LeafSpy settings don't match your vehicle spec.

You set LeafSpy for year and battery size. You can also top it up to 100% slow charge at home.....see how many GIDs you got....and make that your GID count in Leafspy so the percentage it shows matches the one on the dash.

If those are set properly, the numbers should line up.

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