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218 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1989365 6-Apr-2018 11:19
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RUKI:

 

1) Go through the bulk (i.e. a lot, not just one or 3 packs) of modules, load tests them, rank them, discard failed which do not meet threshold and compile working pack from similarly performing modules. That is the process I suggest to use and is in use by those who deployed my Complex in their workshop

 

2) Use the core (that to include wiring, relays, connectors, etc) and install brand new genuine modules from the manufacturer. That is the process used by whoever is authorized to work with and have access to new genuine modules.

 

 

On the 30kwh Leafs at least, the degradation seems to be uniform across the cells.  Gazley Nissan in Wellington did a test of my rapidly degrading battery and found no bad cells, but capacity is still down.  So it seems to be a problem with the chemistry of the cells.  Option 2 seems to be the only one in this case.

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1989459 6-Apr-2018 13:19
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happyfunball:

 

.....My understanding is Nissan NZ also does not want the batteries shipped here as it supports the import market they are not a part of, but that could be changing.

 

 

I hope it changes - it's a lost opportunity for Nissan NZ otherwise. In the early days of Jap imports Toyota NZ refused to support imports but changed their tune after a couple of years - it turned out there was still money to be made selling parts and performing servicing.


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1989536 6-Apr-2018 14:54
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tripper1000:

happyfunball:


.....My understanding is Nissan NZ also does not want the batteries shipped here as it supports the import market they are not a part of, but that could be changing.



I hope it changes - it's a lost opportunity for Nissan NZ otherwise. In the early days of Jap imports Toyota NZ refused to support imports but changed their tune after a couple of years - it turned out there was still money to be made selling parts and performing servicing.



Yep, and if they then also gave priority to local NZ Nissan buyers, they would then also be able to leverage their market to buy locally too 😢

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  Reply # 1989712 6-Apr-2018 20:16
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Just emailed Leaf Battery Manufacturing Plant in Japan an inquiry about battery encoding for energy density and identification of the production plant. Will see if they reply to my email. Their site and quick Google search does not return anything useful. Have not visited mynissanleaf.com long time, perhaps something is posted there...

 

Similarly to how car assembly plants are coded - there might be coding for the 3 plants making those Leaf modules.  

 

For now I received one QR code from UK module, 2 from USA modules and one from Japan module. Not enough. And there were no VIN/Frame Numbers re: UK & Jap. I can ask for more of USA QR codes, but I guess nobody is planning to import from US.

 

When I get all that - I'll make a tool which will allow to scan all modules in the pack and instantly see if it is genuine and where it's made.

 

Internet suggests that 40kWh batteries will only be made at UK plant. Is that information true? Are they planning to ship batteries from UK to Japan? Those are different modules by the way - 24modules (8 cells each) instead of 48 modules (4 cells each) in 24/30kWh packs. But pinouts and dimensions of 40kWh pack seems to be the same as 2013 model Leaf (already compared service manual from 2017 and 2013). Boys overseas are planning an experiment to install 40kWh pack into 2014 Leaf when that 2017 Leaf arrives to them from USA. Most likely VCM need to be transferred across for that.





Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair 

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1989885 7-Apr-2018 08:36
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I hope there is a solution soon. In an ideal world, there will be enough 1st Gen Leafs in use when the next advance in battery tech comes along and someone will be able to retrofit them; I can always drop an A+ engine into a classic Mini and I hope that electrics can eventually enjoy the same prolonged life. 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1989907 7-Apr-2018 10:02
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So what currently happens if you buy a leaf and the battery is stuffed? Are you screwed or can you pop down to the local garage and have it repaired?





Amanon

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1989924 7-Apr-2018 10:31
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Dulouz:

 

So what currently happens if you buy a leaf and the battery is stuffed? Are you screwed or can you pop down to the local garage and have it repaired?

 

 

You could go to a Nissan dealer and talk to them.  The big problem is that there are very few Leafs with stuffed batteries currently, it is a very small market today.

 

Over the next 5 years there will be more Leafs with stuffed batteries and therefore more demand for a good solution, therefore things will improve.  The problem today lies with the earliest of the failures, having a bad battery when very few others do is definitely a sucky situation. The biggest issue seems to be with those that bought a 30kWh Leaf because they needed more range and now are looking at faster battery degradation than expected.  If they can't make do for around 3 years when a 2-year-old 60kWh car might be a decent price, they have a real issue!

 

My battery seems good, I still get home from work with over 30% remaining.  The way things are going there should be battery replacements available by the time I need them, either that or I will have changed cars - maybe to a 2nd hand Japanese import 60kWh Leaf or something similar.  I'm just not worried because I'm using my 24kWh Leaf for the sort of thing it was designed for - a 70km round trip daily commute. On long trips I'll generally take the motorbike regardless of the weather, it has no problem getting 300km on a tank, stopping for a few minutes and then doing another 300km - that is enough for me to get from home (Morrinsville) to Wellington with one stop for fuel.  I'll leave longer distance driving in an EV until I have MUCH more range, I won't be changing cars until I can get something for a good price that has over 300km range.

 

I did deliberately spend more on a Leaf that was fairly new (2015) with 12 bars.  I specifically had in mind that the battery should be good for long enough that there would be good options before I had a real problem with my battery.  I had originally thought about a 2011 Leaf with 10 or 11 bars at a much cheaper price, but I decided that problems could come up too soon.  For someone with a 30km round trip, I'd have trouble believing that a cheaper, older Leaf wouldn't work just fine.


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1989928 7-Apr-2018 10:47
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@MarkH67 - thanks, I'm looking at buying a 2015 24Kw leaf at the moment, although I'm starting to think it may require too much time and cognitive processing.

 

My wife would be the main user but it would turn into another 'job' for me to make sure it's charged and all the best practice guidelines that need to be followed to optimise battery performance are implemented. Sure, it's fine if you like to 'geek' out over that kinda stuff but if you have a busy life I don't know if I can really be bothered. The other option I'm looking at is the Toyota Prius C which gets good mileage and no range worries.





Amanon

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1990964 7-Apr-2018 11:55
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Dulouz: Sure, it's fine if you like to 'geek' out over that kinda stuff but if you have a busy life I don't know if I can really be bothered.

 

I can't be bothered and don't even care that much about my car.  It is just there to get me to work and back.  I get home, I plug the EVSE in, then in the morning I unplug the EVSE and I drive to work - that's about it.

 

What I actually spend a LOT of time with is my motorcycle.  I've spent more to buy it (it is brand new) and then I've spent literally thousands on it since buying it - and that was only 5 weeks ago.  I'll probably have spent around $10k on the bike within the first year while spending close to $0 on the car over the same time period.  I'm currently saving to buy panniers and mounting rack - that will cost me over $2k landed price.  I changed the footpegs to larger after-market ones, that cost me over US$300 and I did the work myself to swap them over.  The engine guards, crash bars & skid plate were over $1k and took some work to fit.

 

My baby:

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you think is involved with looking after a Nissan Leaf, but in my experience, there is practically nothing to do.  There would be more to do on a Prius or a Corolla.


218 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1990999 7-Apr-2018 12:49
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Dulouz:

 

My wife would be the main user but it would turn into another 'job' for me to make sure it's charged and all the best practice guidelines that need to be followed to optimise battery performance are implemented. Sure, it's fine if you like to 'geek' out over that kinda stuff but if you have a busy life I don't know if I can really be bothered.

 

 

Peoples ideas for 'best practice guidelines' haven't been shown to make any significant difference.  Those ideas are based on peoples opinions rather than facts.  All the empirical data says charge any way you want, just don't live in a hot climate, and don't buy a 30kwh Leaf.  


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 1991080 7-Apr-2018 15:17
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happyfunball:

 

Peoples ideas for 'best practice guidelines' haven't been shown to make any significant difference.  Those ideas are based on peoples opinions rather than facts.  All the empirical data says charge any way you want, just don't live in a hot climate, and don't buy a 30kwh Leaf.  

 

 

I completely agree that many best practice guidelines are on shaky ground.

 

Many people say DC fast charging is bad. However, our data doesn't support that: Sure, I found an effect of lower SoH in cars that had more fast charging but the effect of battery health was so small (~1% less if primarily fast charging) that there is no need to worry about it. I didn't think twice with with our Easter trip to Tekapo and using fast chargers.

 

Testing in the laboratory shows that for numerous chemistries of Lithium Ion storing at high states of charge at high temperatures causes accelerated capacity loss. However, there was been no in-field testing to see how much this contributes to the decline in traction batteries. Is having a battery at 30'C and above 80% charged a big issue if only for a day? Does it matter if you get up to 40'C during a trip? Is charging when the battery is hot a problem? We really don't have any solid evidence what is most important for maximising battery life under NZ conditions.

 

It is also possible that the variation in the data isn't only explained by differences in temperature, state of charge, and charging patterns. It could also be due to variation in initial manufacturing. There is nothing a user can change about that. We have a study planned to get the evidence of what really matters.

 

So I agree to just charge and use the car generally as you want. If not using the car for more than a few days I think the laboratory evidence is enough to say best to store at <80% charge and that is the only practice I follow. My SoH at purchase was 94% and is 95% now 9 months and 15,000 kms later and in general these 24 kWh batteries seem reasonably robust.

 

 




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  Reply # 1991134 7-Apr-2018 16:32
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Dulouz:

 

@MarkH67 - thanks, I'm looking at buying a 2015 24Kw leaf at the moment, although I'm starting to think it may require too much time and cognitive processing.

 

My wife would be the main user but it would turn into another 'job' for me to make sure it's charged and all the best practice guidelines that need to be followed to optimise battery performance are implemented. Sure, it's fine if you like to 'geek' out over that kinda stuff but if you have a busy life I don't know if I can really be bothered. The other option I'm looking at is the Toyota Prius C which gets good mileage and no range worries.

 

 

As Mark says.....you don't really have to spend much time on the car. I like to understand things, so I spend a fair bit of time playing with them. But after almost 2 years of owning a LEAF I could just as easily have plugged it in every night and driven it each day and that was all that was needed. 

Even if you need a bit of extra juice in a day - (driving over 100km is a busy day!) - then you can just stop at a fast charger and add a bit of power in 5-10 minutes. No need to charge it all the way unless you're going a long way. 

It actually is easier than a petrol car. No need to go the petrol station before bed to top up so you can have a quick start in the morning. In fact, if you set the timer - once - for something like 9pm to 5am Monday to Sunday, you can arrive home anytime, plug it in....and not think about it until the next day.

No need to geek out.....unless you want to.  

I get into the detail because I do things like drive my LEAF from Auckland to Kaitaia and back on the same day. When doing 700km+ drives there are a couple of things that are helpful to know, but for everyday use within (say) 300km of home....you only need to know how to charge the car and drive it. 





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


381 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1991350 8-Apr-2018 09:30
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Linuxluver:

 

I get into the detail because I do things like drive my LEAF from Auckland to Kaitaia and back on the same day. When doing 700km+ drives there are a couple of things that are helpful to know, but for everyday use within (say) 300km of home....you only need to know how to charge the car and drive it. 

 

 

Could you expand on this? I enjoy doing daily drives to the Coromandel so I'm curious to see how a Leaf holds up. Are you running a 30kwh model? My Taupo drives are less of an issue (SH1 seems to be well served) but I can't quite figure out how to make it back from, say Tairua, on a single charge in a Leaf.  




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  Reply # 1991433 8-Apr-2018 15:29
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GV27:

 

Linuxluver:

 

I get into the detail because I do things like drive my LEAF from Auckland to Kaitaia and back on the same day. When doing 700km+ drives there are a couple of things that are helpful to know, but for everyday use within (say) 300km of home....you only need to know how to charge the car and drive it. 

 

 

Could you expand on this? I enjoy doing daily drives to the Coromandel so I'm curious to see how a Leaf holds up. Are you running a 30kwh model? My Taupo drives are less of an issue (SH1 seems to be well served) but I can't quite figure out how to make it back from, say Tairua, on a single charge in a Leaf.  

 



I have driven from Auckland to the Coromandel and gone right around the peninsula (Coro town, Taurua, Whitianga and Whangamata).....and then carried on to Opotiki. 

It's 108km to Thames from my house. I typically arrive with about 30-35% left over. *almost* enough to carry on to Coromandel Town without charging (It's barely more than 50km)......but I haven't risked it because of the big hill. At this point your battery will be only slightly warmer than when you left assuming you drove the 90kph speed limit on SH2 in the safer speed zones.... and 100 the rest.  

OK...so where are you going now? Charging up to 80% will warm the battery up by maybe 8C.....so no issues with heat. You've just added 120km....and you can then drive around to the coast to Whitianga or beyond to Tairua. Then charge to 80% again. In winter or at night the battery will cool down a lot. In summer all the hills will keep it warm. It you charge to 80% in Tairua you can easily get to Thames for maybe a 5 - 10 minute charge to 80% or 85% and then carry on to Auckland. The battery will be getting warmish (40-45C) about now if it's a warm summer day......but all you need to do it drive home. No problem. Total drive about 300km and well within the battery heat tolerance for the LEAF. 

If you were going to this whole drive TWICE in on day (600km)......I'd suggest a cooling break of a couple of hours between them while you charge at home. 

 





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


271 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1991632 8-Apr-2018 19:04
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My question is - can the LEAFs etc keep up with the rest of us at highway speeds. The odd times I have seen them they travel at 90km/hr and hold everybody else up..........

 

My take is still they are really only for round town - on the open road too many compromises - mainly for other drivers!! :-)

 

 

 

 





Mark Ascroft
Wellington


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