Nissan LEAF - General

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#1997100 16-Apr-2018 14:31

Elliemay:

gulfa:

I can assure you range is affected My 2016 30KWH leaf dropped a bar to eleven bars yesterday My SOH is 84.35% I regularly got 175KM on trips and around town 195+ I have definitely noticed a decline in range My trips are now in the mid 160kms and around town low 180kms. This is a UK leaf. Interestingly the bar returned today. They are still a wonderful car and I am not complaining but would hope that the future holds something for us. I am interested to see what the predictions are for battery SOH in 3-4 years and how many bars we will drop.

Gulfa, what was your SOH when you were regularly getting 175km on trips and 195+ around town? Thanks.

I have only just started using Leaf spy so I cant really make any comment. When I bought my Leaf in 2016 (Sept/Oct) I didn't know much about SOH Soc etc. Bought it quite blindly but I don't regret it.

FireEngine

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#1997127 16-Apr-2018 14:48

SaltyNZ:

frednz:

I guess you have to expect some reduction in range as time goes on, so your 15 km drop is not huge. Over what period of time has this 15 km range drop taken place?

Yes, you do. The problem is not that range drops over time. The problem is that Nissan says that most cars should drop to approximately 80% of health in approximately 5 years, but at the moment it looks like that is happening in 2 years. The reason it looks like that is because Nissan's own equipment says it is. LeafSpy isn't calculating anything - it's reading out a value that the battery management system calculates.

So to a certain extent it is possible that there is simply a bug in the BMS, and that a software update would fix it. But in the meantime, if the BMS only believes you can safely put 24kWh into a 30kWh battery, then that's all you get. That's the best case. The worst case is that the BMS is correct, and the batteries are physically degrading 2-3x faster than they should be.

Now, I know I can get 150km out of mine with some charge still to spare. That's less than the 172km range of a new 30kWh Leaf, but more than the 130km range of a new 24kWh Leaf. My SoH is ~80%, and 80% of 30kWh is 24kWh. Range reported on a full charge varies depending day to day on what time I got home (since I only have the 8A charger), phase of moon, colour of socks, whatever, but it often reports ~130km, which also agrees well with an 80% SoH.

If SoH was strictly accurate I should be seeing 130km, and getting it, but in fact I may be getting more.

The only thing that will resolve it really is a large scale controlled test. Trying to compare real-world driving range in real cars against the test standard is pointless, but if you can do controlled tests to run down a bunch of cars with different SoH from full charge to turtle mode you might see real trends. Difficulty: nobody has the time to bring their car along to a dyno for a couple of days to do repeatable tests.

Does the 30kwh not come with a larger charger? If not then it may be that real-world means the same lifestyle results in a never-fully-charged 30kwh vs a more-fully-charged 24kwh...which may be affecting the capacity readings depending on how smart the software is...engineers/developers have made that kind of error before.

Also it may not be controlled testing but enough volume of real-world experience is a good substitute <to compare> the two different battery capacities as that report does.

Regards FireEngine

frednz

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#1997212 16-Apr-2018 17:47

SaltyNZ:

frednz:

I guess you have to expect some reduction in range as time goes on, so your 15 km drop is not huge. Over what period of time has this 15 km range drop taken place?

snip

If SoH was strictly accurate I should be seeing 130km, and getting it, but in fact I may be getting more.

The only thing that will resolve it really is a large scale controlled test. Trying to compare real-world driving range in real cars against the test standard is pointless, but if you can do controlled tests to run down a bunch of cars with different SoH from full charge to turtle mode you might see real trends. Difficulty: nobody has the time to bring their car along to a dyno for a couple of days to do repeatable tests.

So, at this time, it appears that the research is not complete enough to require a car dealer to either withdraw 30kWh Leafs from sale or to advise customers of the incomplete Flip the Fleet research. After all, it's the range of the Leaf that's the crucial thing and not theoretical battery health readings which are the subject of debate. In addition, Nissan don't seem to have confirmed that the range of the 30kWh Leaf is declining more rapidly than it should be.

happyfunball

282 posts

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#1997250 16-Apr-2018 19:27

frednz:

So, at this time, it appears that the research is not complete enough to require a car dealer to either withdraw 30kWh Leafs from sale or to advise customers of the incomplete Flip the Fleet research.

Battery health on an electric car is a crucial thing. The 30kwh models are experiencing battery health decline, so by any reasonable measure this is lowering the value of the car. Imagine an ICE car with a shrinking petrol tank. If the dealer can find someone to buy the car who doesn't ask about the shrinking tank, should they sell it to them without mentioning it?

I have no problem with dealers selling these cars, but if they don't mention the FTF study to a potential buyer they are misleading people, because thats a lie of omission.

As for the claim that the BMS battery health estimate doesn't affect range, thats an extraordinary claim that needs to be proved. Until then, we can safely assume battery health is related to energy capacity; as it is for every other EV or device powered by a Li-ion battery.

frednz

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#1997257 16-Apr-2018 19:50

happyfunball:

frednz:

So, at this time, it appears that the research is not complete enough to require a car dealer to either withdraw 30kWh Leafs from sale or to advise customers of the incomplete Flip the Fleet research.

Battery health on an electric car is a crucial thing. The 30kwh models are experiencing battery health decline, so by any reasonable measure this is lowering the value of the car. Imagine an ICE car with a shrinking petrol tank. If the dealer can find someone to buy the car who doesn't ask about the shrinking tank, should they sell it to them without mentioning it?

I have no problem with dealers selling these cars, but if they don't mention the FTF study to a potential buyer they are misleading people, because thats a lie of omission.

As for the claim that the BMS battery health estimate doesn't affect range, thats an extraordinary claim that needs to be proved. Until then, we can safely assume battery health is related to energy capacity; as it is for every other EV or device powered by a Li-ion battery.

I think you need to think quite broadly on this issue, particularly when you are looking at it from a car dealer's viewpoint. If a dealer tells buyers about the incomplete research and conclusions of "Flip the Fleet", what do you think's going to happen?

My guess is that nobody would buy a 30kWh model unless it's discounted to at least the same price (or less) of an equivalent 24kWh model, or worse still nobody will buy a 30kWh model until the research about range is more scientifically concluded.

So, if that happens, is it fair that the dealer should suffer a loss on the 30kWh models that have already arrived in the country or which are already in transit?

And should dealers stop importing additional 30kWh models altogether?

I think the claim that has yet to be proved is that BMS battery health has already directly impacted on range, not that this may prove to be the case when the research has been completed.

SaltyNZ

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#1997260 16-Apr-2018 19:58

frednz:

So, if that happens, is it fair that the dealer should suffer a loss on the 30kWh models that have already arrived in the country or which are already in transit?

And should dealers stop importing additional 30kWh models altogether?

Well, to imply there's nothing wrong when there is absolutely a good reason to think there might be is at best disingenuous. If and when it turns out the batteries are faulty, that dealer is opening him/herself up to a world of hurt. I found out about this issue only a couple of months after buying my car. I'm not angry at the dealer; he knew nothing about it at the time. But if I found out about it afterwards and that the dealer did know ... well, I'd be telling every damn person I met that that dealer was a liar.

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kingdragonfly

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#1997263 16-Apr-2018 20:06

This may sound like an odd question, but a Berkeley California professor said that lithium batteries last longer if they're charged to only 80% capacity, and discharged to only 30%.

Does any in-home charger do this?

happyfunball

282 posts

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#1997265 16-Apr-2018 20:07

frednz:

My guess is that nobody would buy a 30kWh model unless it's discounted to at least the same price (or less) of an equivalent 24kWh model, or worse still nobody will buy a 30kWh model until the research about range is more scientifically concluded.

I've heard that 30kwh models are already selling for less than 24kwh models in Japan, so if a dealer is charging more, its not because its worth more. The used Leaf market has flipped in Japan because of the report.

There are no doubt dealers with stock of 30kwh models that want to unload them, and will say whatever they can to do so. If I bought one and they failed to inform me, I'd be very upset with the dealer.

frednz

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#1997277 16-Apr-2018 20:21

SaltyNZ:

frednz:

So, if that happens, is it fair that the dealer should suffer a loss on the 30kWh models that have already arrived in the country or which are already in transit?

And should dealers stop importing additional 30kWh models altogether?

Well, to imply there's nothing wrong when there is absolutely a good reason to think there might be is at best disingenuous. If and when it turns out the batteries are faulty, that dealer is opening him/herself up to a world of hurt. I found out about this issue only a couple of months after buying my car. I'm not angry at the dealer; he knew nothing about it at the time. But if I found out about it afterwards and that the dealer did know ... well, I'd be telling every damn person I met that that dealer was a liar.

I can understand this viewpoint, but I think it's going a bit overboard to say the dealer "was a liar", what has he lied about?

I think I would agree with your viewpoint if Nissan said that the Flip the Fleet research, and its own research, showed conclusively that the range of the 30kWh model over a 5-year period is not as good as expected, but to expect dealers to incur losses now on the basis of uncompleted research is a bit over the top (IMHO).

happyfunball

282 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1997285 16-Apr-2018 20:35

frednz:

I can understand this viewpoint, but I think it's going a bit overboard to say the dealer "was a liar", what has he lied about?

If the dealer omitted important information to influence a sale, that would be a lie of omission. The dealer would be a liar.

According to Wikipedia:

"Lying by omission, also known as a continuing misrepresentation, occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception. Lying by omission includes the failure to correct pre-existing misconceptions. For example, when the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service, the seller lies by omission. It can be compared to dissimulation. An omission is when a person tells most of the truth, but leaves out a few key facts that therefore completely change the story."

frednz

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#1997302 16-Apr-2018 20:52

happyfunball:

frednz:

I can understand this viewpoint, but I think it's going a bit overboard to say the dealer "was a liar", what has he lied about?

If the dealer omitted important information to influence a sale, that would be a lie of omission. The dealer would be a liar.

According to Wikipedia:

"Lying by omission, also known as a continuing misrepresentation, occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception. Lying by omission includes the failure to correct pre-existing misconceptions. For example, when the seller of a car declares it has been serviced regularly but does not tell that a fault was reported at the last service, the seller lies by omission. It can be compared to dissimulation. An omission is when a person tells most of the truth, but leaves out a few key facts that therefore completely change the story."

On these grounds the dealer would also be "lying" if he said that the range of all 30 kWh Leafs over the next 5 years is expected to be substantially less than originally expected.

The most that a dealer needs to say at the moment is that, some preliminary research conducted by "Flip the Fleet" shows that the state of health of some New Zealand 30 kWh Leaf's batteries is worse than expected, but no conclusive research yet exists to show that all 30kWh Leafs will, over the next 5 years, have substantially less range than expected.

And at this stage, if I was a dealer, I wouldn't discount the 30 kWh Leafs down to the prices of 24 kWh Leafs (or less).

PhantomNVD

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#1997353 16-Apr-2018 23:54

But I’d love to get a 30kw 2016 for the price of a 24KW 😉

SaltyNZ

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#1997427 17-Apr-2018 07:49

frednz:

The most that a dealer needs to say at the moment is that, some preliminary research conducted by "Flip the Fleet" shows that the state of health of some New Zealand 30 kWh Leaf's batteries is worse than expected, but no conclusive research yet exists to show that all 30kWh Leafs will, over the next 5 years, have substantially less range than expected.

And at this stage, if I was a dealer, I wouldn't discount the 30 kWh Leafs down to the prices of 24 kWh Leafs (or less).

Exactly. You must disclose the potential issue. You don't need to discount the car. The buyer has all the pertinent info: they can now make an informed choice on whether the 30kWh car is worth risking the extra money to maybe not get the extra range for as long as they should normally expect.

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

SaltyNZ

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#1997428 17-Apr-2018 07:52

Ugh. Was running about 5 minutes late this morning. Got out to the garage ... forgot to plug the car in last night due to many arm loads of groceries. Range to go ... juuuuuust about exactly the distance I need to travel. Not really a risk I need to take. Stop at Silverdale for 5 minutes of charging to give myself enough extra juice to make it without needing to panic. Plug in again at Gillies Ave substation to charge back up to full.

Thanks, Vector!

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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

frankv

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#1997465 17-Apr-2018 08:49

PhantomNVD: But I’d love to get a 30kw 2016 for the price of a 24KW 😉

I don't think I would. Looking at the graphs, it appears that a 2yo 30kWh has 85% (+/-5%) capacity (i.e. about 25.5kWh). So your 30kWh 2016 only has 6% more range than a 24kWh 2016 car. And the slope of the 30kWh graph is much steeper than the 24kWh graph. Extrapolating (which is risky, I know), in another 2 years the 2016 30kWh battery would have about the same capacity than the 2016 24kWh battery (about 21kWh). And thereafter it would have less capacity.

The "shrinking petrol tank" analogy is apt. And you might want to consider that replacing the "petrol tank" will cost $6,000 plus GST plus shipping + GST on shipping plus markup plus labour... probably close to $10K.

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