Nissan LEAF - General

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1223 posts

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#2000351 21-Apr-2018 16:37

RUKI:

happyfunball:

..One prominent flaw is that [other people] are *expecting* batteries to decline with odometer usage, .... .....

Today Leaf which was driving for more than a year in Auckland entered my driveway - over 64000 kms on a dash - still on 12 bars, owner is a Geek (big time) and they have not noticed any degradation...

Nissan are among the "other people"...

The Leaf you had today was imported as new? If not how old is the battery?

Regards FireEngine

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KrazyKid

1237 posts

Uber Geek

#2000403 21-Apr-2018 19:18

Anyone sourced a spare tire for their leaf?
I was thinking maybe a second hand space saver from a wreckers?

I've just done a drive where I totally shredded a tire in the dark on SH1. No fun.
The tire was totally gone - no way the foam filler would work on that mess.
I was lucky and was helped from a local who stopped for my hazard lights. He who knew the guy at the garage and I got a lift for me and my rim back to the garage which was opened after hours to replace my tire.
Major thanks Mark and the others who saved me, the wife and kids lots of grief!

As a bonus I did discover my State Insurance breakdown cover did include towing back to a nearby town if I had needed it.

happyfunball

287 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2000461 21-Apr-2018 21:17

RUKI:

Today Leaf which was driving for more than a year in Auckland entered my driveway - over 64000 kms on a dash - still on 12 bars, owner is a Geek (big time) and they have not noticed any degradation...

How old is the car and what is the SOH? I saw rapid degradation at 25 months of age since the build date of the car. The cars seem to hold up pretty well before that point.

RUKI

1400 posts

Uber Geek

#2000649 22-Apr-2018 14:45

happyfunball:

RUKI:

Today Leaf which was driving for more than a year in Auckland entered my driveway - over 64000 kms on a dash - still on 12 bars, owner is a Geek (big time) and they have not noticed any degradation...

How old is the car and what is the SOH? I saw rapid degradation at 25 months of age since the build date of the car. The cars seem to hold up pretty well before that point.

We did not look at SOH or LeafSpy on that car. It was out of scope. Car was JDM import.

Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair

FireEngine

1223 posts

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#2000708 22-Apr-2018 17:21

RUKI:

happyfunball:

RUKI:

Today Leaf which was driving for more than a year in Auckland entered my driveway - over 64000 kms on a dash - still on 12 bars, owner is a Geek (big time) and they have not noticed any degradation...

How old is the car and what is the SOH? I saw rapid degradation at 25 months of age since the build date of the car. The cars seem to hold up pretty well before that point.

We did not look at SOH or LeafSpy on that car. It was out of scope. Car was JDM import.

TBH I'd find it easier to believe it had had a new battery in Japan under warranty than it had zero degradation and yet was still being exported...but the (lack of), data you have doesn't support any view really...especially not knowing the calendar age of the vehicle.

Regards FireEngine

RUKI

1400 posts

Uber Geek

#2000732 22-Apr-2018 18:21

@ FireEngine:

@ happyfunball:

SOH is 87 and they were driving it in Auckland for 2 years now. As you both were interested asked for and received screenshot from it done today. I wiped out Frame Number (starts from 11Xxxx) for privacy purpose, the Leafs being imported now - many have Frame Number AZEO-20Xxxx - so that one is quite old:

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frednz

1467 posts

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#2000757 22-Apr-2018 19:25

https://insideevs.com/nissan-issues-statement-on-leaf-30-kwh-battery-degradation/

In the above article dated Mar 30 2018, it provides Nissan's initial response to the Nissan Leaf 30 kWh potential battery degradation issue:

"Following the release of the results of this study and our coverage of the potential issue, Green Car Reports reached out to Nissan for comment. EV communication manager, Jeff Wandell, offered this response:

“Nissan is aware that a limited number of customers have expressed concerns with the previous generation of the Nissan LEAF 30-kWh battery.”

“LEAF owners are some of our most devoted customers.”

“We take their concerns seriously, and have technical experts currently investigating the issues raised.”

We’re glad to know that Nissan is looking into this potential issue. We’ll report back if Nissan presents any additional information."

It's well worth reading on the above web page the 113 comments that have been published so far about the potential battery degradation issue. Here's an extract from one of the comments:

"The Leaf has probably the best battery warranty in the industry. I don’t know of any other manufacture that guarantees EV batteries to maintain at least 75% (9 bars out of 12) of their capacity for eight years (96 months). And even after the eight years when the battery finally degrades enough to replace it, Nissan appears to be further along on a BEV battery replacement program than any other manufacturer.

The warranty is another reason the data in this report appears flawed. The report indicates an accelerating degradation near 10% per year. At this rate Nissan would be replacing EVERY BEV battery pack every three years or at least twice under the warranty period.

Leaf battery packs that have to be replaced during the warranty period are still pretty rare. And three years is certainly not the average. I don’t think Nissan would have made the Leaf as good a value as it is if they planned to replace every battery pack every three years."

happyfunball

287 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2000761 22-Apr-2018 19:35

RUKI:

@ FireEngine:

@ happyfunball:

SOH is 87 and they were driving it in Auckland for 2 years now. As you both were interested asked for and received screenshot from it done today. I wiped out Frame Number (starts from 11Xxxx) for privacy purpose, the Leafs being imported now - many have Frame Number AZEO-20Xxxx - so that one is quite old:

Thats a very strange LeafSpy report for a 30kwh car. It shows only 56ahr remaining and no charge level. A new 30kwh car has 80ahr, so 87% of that is 69AHr, not 56! Are you sure this isn't a 24kwh car?

The 24kwh cars don't show any rapid battery degradation like the 30kwh models do.

paulchinnz

Circumspice
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#2000793 22-Apr-2018 20:45

frednz:

...

It's well worth reading on the above web page the 113 comments that have been published so far about the potential battery degradation issue. Here's an extract from one of the comments:

"The Leaf has probably the best battery warranty in the industry. I don’t know of any other manufacture that guarantees EV batteries to maintain at least 75% (9 bars out of 12) of their capacity for eight years (96 months). And even after the eight years when the battery finally degrades enough to replace it, Nissan appears to be further along on a BEV battery replacement program than any other manufacturer.

The warranty is another reason the data in this report appears flawed. The report indicates an accelerating degradation near 10% per year. At this rate Nissan would be replacing EVERY BEV battery pack every three years or at least twice under the warranty period.

Leaf battery packs that have to be replaced during the warranty period are still pretty rare. And three years is certainly not the average. I don’t think Nissan would have made the Leaf as good a value as it is if they planned to replace every battery pack every three years."

It's a good point re Nissan's warranty doesn't reconcile with rapid degradation seen with 30kWh.

However:

1) each bar does not necessarily represent 1/12 of original capacity (e.g. first bar is dropped around 85% SOH), so 9 bars is more like 65-70% (e.g. https://insideevs.com/battery-capacity-loss-chart-2016-30-kwh-nissan-leaf/). That being the case, VW offers to replace e-Golf battery that wears more than 70% in 8y/100000km with a new battery

2) flipthefleet data are only for 2y - perhaps the degradation after that slows ... seems pretty unlikely for the batteries in flipthefleet sample though

3) perhaps as others have said, NZ has bad lot of batteries or some unique combination of conditions and driving styles has led to accelerated degradation. Regardless, Nissan could help by providing data on other 30 kWh cars ... I'd be much less concerned about the flipthefleet data if there was e.g. another dataset of 1000 Leaf 30 kWh that showed a 5% degradation after 2y.

RUKI

1400 posts

Uber Geek

#2000887 23-Apr-2018 08:46

happyfunball:

...

Thats a very strange LeafSpy report for a 30kwh car. ....

Nobody said that it was 30kWh Battery Leaf.

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Linuxluver

5828 posts

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#2000906 23-Apr-2018 09:41

frednz:

https://insideevs.com/nissan-issues-statement-on-leaf-30-kwh-battery-degradation/

In the above article dated Mar 30 2018, it provides Nissan's initial response to the Nissan Leaf 30 kWh potential battery degradation issue:

"Following the release of the results of this study and our coverage of the potential issue, Green Car Reports reached out to Nissan for comment. EV communication manager, Jeff Wandell, offered this response:

“Nissan is aware that a limited number of customers have expressed concerns with the previous generation of the Nissan LEAF 30-kWh battery.”

“LEAF owners are some of our most devoted customers.”

“We take their concerns seriously, and have technical experts currently investigating the issues raised.”

We’re glad to know that Nissan is looking into this potential issue. We’ll report back if Nissan presents any additional information."

It's well worth reading on the above web page the 113 comments that have been published so far about the potential battery degradation issue. Here's an extract from one of the comments:

"The Leaf has probably the best battery warranty in the industry. I don’t know of any other manufacture that guarantees EV batteries to maintain at least 75% (9 bars out of 12) of their capacity for eight years (96 months). And even after the eight years when the battery finally degrades enough to replace it, Nissan appears to be further along on a BEV battery replacement program than any other manufacturer.

The warranty is another reason the data in this report appears flawed. The report indicates an accelerating degradation near 10% per year. At this rate Nissan would be replacing EVERY BEV battery pack every three years or at least twice under the warranty period.

Leaf battery packs that have to be replaced during the warranty period are still pretty rare. And three years is certainly not the average. I don’t think Nissan would have made the Leaf as good a value as it is if they planned to replace every battery pack every three years."

So far, none of this warranty applies to NZ.

There are people trying to source LEAF batteries for a price. They said several months ago they had secured supply and shipping means.....but no word since.

It is currently possible to replace a bad cell or 2, 3......but the linking of the battery to the battery management system (a proprietary restriction) limits the options for full replacement. One way or another they need to be swapped as a pair or Nissan needs to help. So far, in NZ, Nissan hasn't helped.

This hasn't dented LEAF sales much because the cars are extremely reliable. Outrageously reliable. But the ultimate limiter is the battery. As it stands today you'd sell a LEAF with insufficient range to someone who had an appropriate use case and buy another (LEAF or other) with suffcient range for your purposes.

......or just buy a Hyundai Ioniq or BMW i3 or Tesla (online) locally. They all get full, local support.

This should change in the next year.....as other vendors bring their EVs to market. But I suspect they need a push from government because climate change alone doesn't seem to be enough of a motivator for them. It's a crap attitude from an industry that is a major contributor to greenhouse gas emissions gloablly.

_____________________________________________________________________

I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

Linuxluver

5828 posts

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#2001384 24-Apr-2018 09:10

KrazyKid:

Anyone sourced a spare tire for their leaf?
I was thinking maybe a second hand space saver from a wreckers?

I've just done a drive where I totally shredded a tire in the dark on SH1. No fun.
The tire was totally gone - no way the foam filler would work on that mess.
I was lucky and was helped from a local who stopped for my hazard lights. He who knew the guy at the garage and I got a lift for me and my rim back to the garage which was opened after hours to replace my tire.
Major thanks Mark and the others who saved me, the wife and kids lots of grief!

As a bonus I did discover my State Insurance breakdown cover did include towing back to a nearby town if I had needed it.

I've been lucky. I change the tyres every 40,000km and haven't had a flat for 25 years on any vehicle. I usually buy the best tyres available for lower rolling resistance and durability. If I get a slow leak, I buy two new tyres.

I avoid metal roads. Like...stop...turn around and don't go there.

_____________________________________________________________________

I've been on Geekzone over 16 years..... Time flies....

RUKI

1400 posts

Uber Geek

#2001427 24-Apr-2018 10:24

Linuxluver:

.....
It is currently possible to replace a bad cell or 2, 3......but the linking of the battery to the battery management system (a proprietary restriction) limits the options for full replacement. ......
......or just buy a Hyundai Ioniq or BMW i3 or Tesla (online) locally. .....

re: reprogramming of swap battery - for me to start offering reprogramming part as a service is a matter of ordering part for about $3K which currently I can not see justifiable in ROI terms.

re: FTF are misleading general public by using two critical words " scientists" and "capacity". True scientists spend time in the LAB putting their assumptions to the test. True scientists have reference points. FTF folks got government money (80K) but have not tested any battery for capacity; they have not asked Jim (LeafSpy Developer) about what SOH is representative of. (Jim admitted that is is somehow related to capacity but not quite); they have not tested any brand new 30kWh battery (must have done at least 3) to have results as a reference point. Hence there is absolutely NO reference point for their findings. They have not tested for the same purpose capacity of NZ New EVs - e.g. Ioniq or BMW - so that those numbers could serve as a reference points going forward.

The truth is (as tested on many batteries in two LABS - my Battery Testing LAB and IDAHO Lab): "DC" - design capacity and "FCC"-Full Charge Capacity of the new battery (any chemistry) could differ and sometimes significantly.

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gzt

16815 posts

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#2001445 24-Apr-2018 10:47

Linuxluver: I avoid metal roads. Like...stop...turn around and don't go there.

That's quite an achievement with the number of miles you've driven : ).

SaltyNZ

8061 posts

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#2001451 24-Apr-2018 10:53

RUKI:

re: reprogramming of swap battery - for me to start offering reprogramming part as a service is a matter of ordering part for about $3K which currently I can not see justifiable in ROI terms.

re: FTF are misleading general public by using two critical words " scientists" and "capacity". True scientists spend time in the LAB putting their assumptions to the test. True scientists have reference points. FTF folks got government money (80K) but have not tested any battery for capacity; they have not asked Jim (LeafSpy Developer) about what SOH is representative of. (Jim admitted that is is somehow related to capacity but not quite); they have not tested any brand new 30kWh battery (must have done at least 3) to have results as a reference point. Hence there is absolutely NO reference point for their findings. They have not tested for the same purpose capacity of NZ New EVs - e.g. Ioniq or BMW - so that those numbers could serve as a reference points going forward.

The truth is (as tested on many batteries in two LABS - my Battery Testing LAB and IDAHO Lab): "DC" - design capacity and "FCC"-Full Charge Capacity of the new battery (any chemistry) could differ and sometimes significantly.

Valid points. But there's a fairly easy way to put all this controversy to bed: Nissan has all that info, or could get it. Given the potential for it to seriously hurt them if their cars got a reputation for bad batteries, you'd think they'd be all over it. Conducting their own tests, reaching out to owners, whatever.

So far, all we know is that they acknowledge the existence of the paper. Maybe they are doing everything you suggest. It's their silence that's hurting them right now.

That said a proper investigation will take months. I'm content to wait, for now.

Edited to add: I'm sure the FTF people would love to have some brand new cars or at least batteries to play with for testing. But who is it that won't sell them?

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