Nissan LEAF - General

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#2068938 6-Aug-2018 20:08

leaflearner:

At the moment, Nissan NZ is not around on the EV scene here at all, other than by taking its less-than-enthusiastic step of offering a software upgrade for a mistake made by their parent company in Japan.

They may be about to change their "hands off" approach, but that is only a hope and a possibility.

It has been announced that Nissan NZ will sell the Leaf 2.0 come 2019...

djtOtago

629 posts

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#2068952 6-Aug-2018 20:27

If you install un-approved software from some 3rd party, wouldn't that now make your car "Modified" from manufactures specifications?

I wonder what insurance companies would make of that?

leaflearner

40 posts

Geek

#2068968 6-Aug-2018 21:20

I don't see how a third-party update that corrects dashboard readings -- not a "modification" -- will affect insurance cover. What happens if you fit a 12v battery that isn't the same as the one the car came with? Or a different brand of tyres? Or a different brand of lamp?

leaflearner

40 posts

Geek

#2068978 6-Aug-2018 21:40

wellygary:
leaflearner: At the moment, Nissan NZ is not around on the EV scene here at all, other than by taking its less-than-enthusiastic step of offering a software upgrade for a mistake made by their parent company in Japan.

They may be about to change their "hands off" approach, but that is only a hope and a possibility.
It has been announced that Nissan NZ will sell the Leaf 2.0 come 2019...

Yes, they did also start importing the 24kWh Leaf. I've read the stock was part of a production run for Australia that wasn't taken up. They never sold the 30kWh here, and if they try selling what some call the "Leaf 2.0" here in 2019, I expect they will have to price it out of the reach of all except corporate or local-government buyers. The NZ sales competition from Japanese purchasers of the car in 2018 -- by next year selling their near-new cars at auction -- may make it too difficult for them to persevere.

leaflearner

40 posts

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#2069381 7-Aug-2018 15:31

Over the past few days frednz, happyfunball, myself and others have discussed at length whether 30kWh cars with firmware already updated by partners of EVs Enhanced (who include importers/dealers) should now have it updated again by Nissan NZ. In case anyone has not seen it, here is EVs Enhanced's answer which has appeared elsewhere in social media. In particular, I would draw frednz's attention to the last two sentences of the third paragraph.

One of our friends recently drew our attention to a question about whether or not owners of vehicles that we've already updated should consider another update at their Nissan dealer. The short answer - no. For those wanting the long version, please read on.

The team at EVs Enhanced has complete confidence in the updates that we have applied which are the result of both white-box and black-box testing. Like any product or service that we offer, we stand behind it and we always have the best interests of fellow EV owners in mind. We have had nothing but overwhelmingly positive feedback from everyone for whom we have applied this update, but if anyone with a car we have updated is uncomfortable, then we are happy to discuss this with them to alleviate their concerns. Yes, any car with any firmware could be re-flashed to another firmware version if someone wanted to, but we believe that currently this would be a pointless exercise.

There are actually some aspects of the current "official" 30kWh firmware updates that we don't like or agree with - things that Nissan could have or should have done better. We are investigating the feasibility of developing a custom 30kWh firmware version with slightly modified functionality, but in fairness this is a long way off from being developed, tested and available. This would be a valid case when we would actually recommend a 30kWh LBC that we've previously updated be re-flashed. We also have future plans for custom VCM and LBC firmware for other Leaf models too. Those with a weak heart and intolerance for any updates or modifications that are not specifically endorsed by the manufacturer should probably sit down. Yes, we will tread carefully - we have a lot of very loyal customers that we don't want to disappoint. We also have a few detractors who heavily criticize our every move and that is when we get everything right. Imagine the field day they will have if we actually get something wrong!

Our custom firmware updates will be developed not as a money grabbing exercise for every model in existence but only in cases where the revision is going to have a marked improvement in the vehicle's safety, longevity or ownership experience. When these are available we will make it very clear about functionality differences from the original version and why we considered this change necessary. We will also re-name any custom firmware version so that it can be clearly identified with inexpensive tools such as LeafSpy Pro. This is a far higher level of transparency than you will get with any of Nissan's own firmware updates or most products in the aftermarket ECU re-tuning industry.

robjg63

3103 posts

Uber Geek

#2069403 7-Aug-2018 16:28

Non owner - but extremely interested in the Leaf...

The whole firmware update situation is basically

Nissan cocked up
Nissan should fix

So naturally Nissan dragging their heels and being a bit of a poor communicator (at least initially) has seen a 'homebrew' solution - albeit an apparently quite knowledgeable/trustworthy one.

How easy is it for a potential buyer to see if a car has had either the 'factory' or 'unauthorised' patc h applied at all?

Is there access to version information?

It sounds like either patch is better than no patch - but how would a buyer know?

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

happyfunball

282 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2069418 7-Aug-2018 16:33

robjg63:

Non owner - but extremely interested in the Leaf...

The whole firmware update situation is basically

Nissan cocked up
Nissan should fix
So naturally Nissan dragging their heels and being a bit of a poor communicator (at least initially) has seen a 'homebrew' solution - albeit an apparently quite knowledgeable/trustworthy one.

How easy is it for a potential buyer to see if a car has had either the 'factory' or 'unauthorised' patc h applied at all?

Is there access to version information?

It sounds like either patch is better than no patch - but how would a buyer know?

I think the 'home-brew' patch is the official patch, albeit installed from a non Japanese version of the software. I don't think any home-brew version of the patch has been made, since that would be much more complex and problematic. The patch was released in the US a couple of months ago, and quickly picked up by Nissan in Europe. Nissan in Japan took a couple more months to make it available. The patch was made by Nissan US, where they write the software (and most software in the world, to be fair).

It would be interesting to see if there is any size/byte difference between the different regions on the patch file.

leaflearner

40 posts

Geek

#2069515 7-Aug-2018 19:59

robjg63:

How easy is it for a potential buyer to see if a car has had either the 'factory' or 'unauthorised' patc h applied at all?

Is there access to version information?

It sounds like either patch is better than no patch - but how would a buyer know?

A reputable dealer who specializes in the import and sale of these vehicles (Nissan does not) will be able to tell you immediately if the firmware has been upgraded. Don't trust anyone who is evasive or plain ignorant!

You can get access to version information via LeafSpy Pro. I don't use this myself, but I would know my car has been updated merely from dashboard readings of its estimated travel range, which has been restored by some 40km on a 100% charge since the EVs Enhanced update. The dealer who imported my car for me last year phoned me to organize the update as soon as it was available and offered to pay the full cost. (Yes, the trade does have its good guys.) The car's reading of its traction battery's State of Health (SOH) went up from 71.49% in June (dreadful for a 2016 car!) to more than 87% post update.

I think any 30kWh owner who has either patch so far will tell any potential buyer that either patch is better than no patch ... some, like myself, will say better by heaps. (And I tend to feel my confidence is greater for having had the patch installed by an independent, EV-experienced, qualified electrical engineer.)

Now is a good time to make a switch to an EV if that suits your motoring requirements ... but I think the real bargains will be disappearing fast now it's known the "accelerated battery degradation" of five years' capacity loss in just over two years was a misdiagnosed scare created by dodgy instrumentation not ready to be put in marketed cars in the first place.

frednz

1431 posts

Uber Geek

#2070841 9-Aug-2018 16:45

robjg63:

Non owner - but extremely interested in the Leaf...

The whole firmware update situation is basically

Nissan cocked up
Nissan should fix

I agree that Nissan (and only Nissan) should fix the problem, and although several people in this thread predicted that Nissan wouldn’t do this, we were advised early in August 2018 of the official release of Nissan firmware to fix the problem of the apparent fast battery degradation of the 30 kWh Nissan Leaf.

Soon after this announcement, EVs Enhanced (EE), decided not to compete with Nissan’s dealers and have recommended that customers should take up Nissan’s NZ offer if their local dealer is ‘Leaf Certified’.

I think this is an excellent outcome for Leaf 30 kWh owners and a wise decision from EE because, for example, motor industry groups headed by David Crawford and David Vinsen, considered that, although EE’s patch may work because they have reverse engineered the solution, it will not be as reliable as the fix released by Nissan Japan for vehicles produced for the Japanese market.

Incidentally, David Crawford and David Vinsen are very highly regarded in the motor industry and both men are members of the Government’s “Electric Vehicles Leadership Group”.

leaflearner

40 posts

Geek

#2070893 9-Aug-2018 19:43

What frednz, David Crawford and David Vinsen don't really have their heads around is the fact that people have been modifying / tweaking / reverse engineering software in vehicles, ECUs etc, for as long as software has been around in vehicles. Electric vehicles are not special in any way compared to ICE vehicles in terms of potential risks, pros, cons.... Google "ECU mods" as example.

I know very little about the backgrounds of frednz, David Crawford and David Vinsen, but I believe their education and careers might be more "public service" and "political lobbying" oriented than electrical-engineering oriented. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) And the two Davids represent interests which for the greater part are vested in NZ's ICE motor industry ... which, if Nissan is anything to go by, has to be pulled metaphorically kicking and struggling into the EV age.

The reason Walter Larason (EVs Enhanced) is giving up installing the basic Nissan patch is because he has projects in mind more in keeping with his qualifications and experience as a certificated technician in the auto electrical field, not because his rigorously tested patch "will not be as reliable as the fix released by Nissan Japan for vehicles produced for the Japanese market". (Again, more casting of aspersions by frednz.)

The reason there were doubts about Nissan ever entering the NZ scene with a fix for the problem they had created was because since very early this year, and right up until this month, they were giving no unqualified commitment that they would. Most critics, such as myself, never "predicted" they wouldn't one day be forced to take action, indeed we all hoped they would!

However, Walter came along with his possibly superior, not inferior, patch weeks before Nissaan NZ, most of the specialist EV importers/dealers were happy to facilitate its adoption ... and many, many 30kWh owners were happy to end their months and months of waiting for a solution to a problem they faced daily on their cars' dashboards.

frednz

1431 posts

Uber Geek

#2070918 9-Aug-2018 21:01

leaflearner:

The reason Walter Larason (EVs Enhanced) is giving up installing the basic Nissan patch is because he has projects in mind more in keeping with his qualifications and experience as a certificated technician in the auto electrical field, not because his rigorously tested patch "will not be as reliable as the fix released by Nissan Japan for vehicles produced for the Japanese market". (Again, more casting of aspersions by frednz.)

The quote about the reliability of EVs Enhanced (EE) patch did not come from me. In fact it came from one of your own posts (on p.146 of this thread) in which you quoted correspondence you had with David Crawford, CEO of the Motor Industry Association, as follows:

"The advice around the potential for damage came from the manufacturer. The software fix proposed by the used car importer is hacked software derived, as I understand it, from the UK software fix (advice from the used car sector). While it may work because they have reverse engineered the solution it will not, in my view, be as reliable as the fix soon to be released by Nissan Japan for vehicles produced for the Japanese market. In other words, while they have tried to ensure it works, it is not guaranteed. What I am interested in is ensuring consumers understand the risk they are taking and can then decide for themselves if they want to wait for the manufacturer’s fix, which will come soon, or press ahead with a fix based on hacked software.

So yes, I am a credible source.

Kind regards

David Crawford"

I think members of the public are entitled to rely on the opinions of experts such as David Crawford and David Vinsen, so it was good of you to post their views on this topic. I gather from the above quote that it was Nissan who provided "the advice around the potential for damage" if a third party patch was applied, so again, I think the public are entitled to rely on this expert view.

leaflearner

40 posts

Geek

#2070929 9-Aug-2018 21:12

frednz

Your latest post is misleading and incomplete. You should also read a further post on page 146 in which I responded to David Crawford. I don't intend to keep going around in circles on this issue, and I hope you don't.

I do not accept that Mr Crawford is as "expert" in this case as Walter Larason. And as I've said before I don't see any reason to prefer a patch supplied by the same company that created the necessity for one in the first place.

gzt

11451 posts

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#2070958 9-Aug-2018 22:24

Larason's fix was available prior to the official fix and some owners decided they needed the fix. Their choice. Nissan has now made the official fix available in NZ from authorised service. Good on them both I say.

Some of this is like an exact rerun déjà vu of the early days of japan imports in NZ.

SaltyNZ

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#2071003 10-Aug-2018 06:40

leaflearner:

I know very little about the backgrounds of frednz, David Crawford and David Vinsen, but I believe their education and careers might be more "public service" and "political lobbying" oriented than electrical-engineering oriented.

And you'd be right about that:

David has a Masters degree in Horticultural Science (in economics and marketing) and is a past president of Federated Mountain Clubs.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

SaltyNZ

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#2071167 10-Aug-2018 11:11

Well, just had the update done at City Nissan in Wairau Park. Took a bit less than the 90 minutes they said to allow, which is nice. Before leaving home, LeafSpy reported 74.4% SOH (10 bars) for 20.9kWh at 97.7% charge, with 132km range. On arrival it said 110km range. After update it jumped to 130km range and was down to 115km when I arrived at Plant Barn to QC a bit to see what it would go up to. Interestingly although the charger reported I stopped at 94%, LeafSpy read 89.8% charge for 23.2kWh at 88.84% SoH.

Car was manufactured late 2015, which puts it roughly 2.5-3 years old, so 88.8% is pretty much bang on the line for its age.

So: right now, by comparison that means the battery went from 21.4kWh effective capacity to 25.8kWh. I'll be interested to see where it settles after a week or so of cycling.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

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