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5362 posts

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  #2428649 28-Feb-2020 10:14
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The battery management system can be 'reset' so that it loses history on battery health and has to re-learn it. That makes it appear artificially high until you drive around a bit, and you will notice it rapidly fall until it settles in at the true value. I do agree that your number of charges seems very high for 37,000km. Or more likely, 37,000km seems low for a 7-year-old vehicle.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


145 posts

Master Geek


  #2428656 28-Feb-2020 10:34
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The thing that stands out to me is the approx 5% drop in battery SOH in a very short time.

 

My research indicates a drop of around 3% a year is fairly average for a Nissan Leaf in a moderate climate, a 5% drop in a month or two is much worse than I'd expect. You will occasionally see it go up and down when the battery rebalances but I'm not sure if that can account for what you've seen.

 

 

 

My own 2013 leaf lines up with 3% a year almost perfectly at 79% SOH. It was on 81% and 12 bars when I got it last June and I've lost 1 bar and 2% SOH since then. I'm at 32000km, 51.92 AH and have had 197 QC and 850 L1/L2 Charges. A lot different to yours. The low mileage is perfectly understandable to me on a short range city commute vehicle and I myself only do about 5000km a year in it.

 

 

 

What to do about it I can't help you with but I think you are right to be concerned. If you keep the car I'd keep a close eye on the battery. Get your own OBD2 Bluetooth dongle and use leafspy to keep an eye on it, costs around $30.

 

Don't leave the dongle in permanently though, there's some suggestion it can increase the chances of a brake firmware failure that some people have experienced.

 

 

 

Also have you checked the front suspension mount points? they are in a cup shaped depression under a plastic cover that snaps out either side of the windscreen just under the rear end of the bonnet when you lift it. If they vehicle has spent much time outside they can fill up with water and rust out, it's a known design flaw. A local leaf dealer supplied me with covers for mine and I got pitstop to clean off the rust and coat the bolts to prevent it.

 

 

 

I got my leaf from a local car dealer and regret not going to Hamilton EVs instead as they have helped me out a lot since buying mine and shown me all the issues to look out for. Another one is making sure you have a NZ legal charger rated for 220 - 240V AC. Mine is the japanese charger rated for 200V and technically isn't legal. It works fine, and is probably safe, but the dealer shouldn't have sold the car with it.


 
 
 
 


69 posts

Master Geek


  #2428663 28-Feb-2020 10:48
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I believe there's some 'settlage' if the car's been sitting around for a while before purchase.  Mine dropped a full percent within a week after buying it but then mellowed down into much more gradual degradation.  I suspect your latter readings are more accurate to what your SOH actually was.

 

However 5% is pretty crazy.  I'd take it to the dealer and see what they say.  I would also get in contact with someone versed in consumer law (eg. https://www.consumer.org.nz/topics/advisory-service if you're a consumer.org member, or community law) to see what your rights are in this case.

 

After all is said and done, if your car gets you to where you need it to go without range anxiety, the SOH is not very important.  $13,500 seems like a completely reasonable price for a 30kkm / 72% SOH car to me

 

 

 

p.s. don't worry about fast chargers, there doesn't seem to be much evidence that they inherently damage batteries faster than regular charging.


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Ultimate Geek

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  #2428685 28-Feb-2020 11:07
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My Leaf had a significant number of fast charges vs slow (330 vs 20 I think) when I brought it

 

It dropped about 4% when I got it and started charging at home (slow charging).
I think a leaf that comes form Japan that has had a lot of fast chargers will drop after sitting on the boat etc.
We have had it 2 years and its dropped another 2% per year.

 

It's SoH also drops over winter, can dip by another 3% mid winter in Dunedin.
But that come back in summer -and in Auckland or less cold climates the dip will be less.
The batteries prefer 20 degree days...

 

And if I fast charge a few times it's SoH goes back up by 1-2% as well.

 

So long story short I would be negotiating a discount. 

 

Ask you self if your range dropped by 10% would be a drama, because it will go down over the next few years.
If not keep the Leaf, it will save you money and help the environment.

 

But yes is its a worry of you start looking at SoH all the time. I try not to do it (but still do).
And I remind myself I'm saving $2000 a year on petrol :)

 

 

 

 


14 posts

Geek


  #2428734 28-Feb-2020 11:21
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SaltyNZ:

 

The battery management system can be 'reset' so that it loses history on battery health and has to re-learn it. That makes it appear artificially high until you drive around a bit, and you will notice it rapidly fall until it settles in at the true value. I do agree that your number of charges seems very high for 37,000km. Or more likely, 37,000km seems low for a 7-year-old vehicle.

 

 

Reading about pre-auction inspection convinced me that there is very little chance to get wounded back ODO readings in auction list. One Japanese friend of mine proved me that it is almost impossible in Japan. It is only case if you buy car from some dodgy yard. But this is auction car and I have got the list with similar ODO readings from independent source.

 

Overall car condition is mint - 4.5

 

Based on mileage/charges ratio I tend to assume that battery swap, following reset and deliberate partial re-calibration happened somewhere in between of me and previous owner. But probably only Nissan may prove or refute it.

 

Click to see full size


14 posts

Geek


  #2428756 28-Feb-2020 11:44
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KrazyKid:

 

My Leaf had a significant number of fast charges vs slow (330 vs 20 I think) when I brought it

 

It dropped about 4% when I got it and started charging at home (slow charging).
I think a leaf that comes form Japan that has had a lot of fast chargers will drop after sitting on the boat etc.
We have had it 2 years and its dropped another 2% per year.

 

It's SoH also drops over winter, can dip by another 3% mid winter in Dunedin.
But that come back in summer -and in Auckland or less cold climates the dip will be less.
The batteries prefer 20 degree days...

 

And if I fast charge a few times it's SoH goes back up by 1-2% as well.

 

 

I agree that some difference in showings may appear after long transportation and if charging style have changed. However, I'm comparing reports which are made this summer after arrival to NZ and I still using fast chargers.

 

KrazyKid:

 

So long story short I would be negotiating a discount. 

 

Ask you self if your range dropped by 10% would be a drama, because it will go down over the next few years.
If not keep the Leaf, it will save you money and help the environment.

 

But yes is its a worry of you start looking at SoH all the time. I try not to do it (but still do).
And I remind myself I'm saving $2000 a year on petrol :)

 

 

Such a lost not gonna be a drama if will go down by another 10% in five years. But on another hand, mechanical issues cost me almost nothing on both my Nissan Wingroad 2006 and Tiida 2007, and I still using them everyday. Leaf G1 has almost the same suspension and will last for decades under reasonable care. Power train and invertors are almost immortal.

 

But battery... actually we pay a lot for its quality and range. And I consider it as an investment. That 5% loss was expected in next two years, not weeks. It means that I have lost $4000-5000 on savings.


5362 posts

Uber Geek

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  #2428776 28-Feb-2020 12:18
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Heh, my late-2015 30kWh Leaf just lost its second bar yesterday; I'll be doing my monthly measurement in a couple of days for FtF and I expect to see around 77-78% SoH. OTOH it has 98,000km on it of which 87,000km is mine since January 2018, so I can't really complain.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


 
 
 
 


14 posts

Geek


  #2428780 28-Feb-2020 12:24
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Dugimodo:

 

The thing that stands out to me is the approx 5% drop in battery SOH in a very short time.

 

My research indicates a drop of around 3% a year is fairly average for a Nissan Leaf in a moderate climate, a 5% drop in a month or two is much worse than I'd expect. You will occasionally see it go up and down when the battery rebalances but I'm not sure if that can account for what you've seen.

 

 

 

My own 2013 leaf lines up with 3% a year almost perfectly at 79% SOH. It was on 81% and 12 bars when I got it last June and I've lost 1 bar and 2% SOH since then. I'm at 32000km, 51.92 AH and have had 197 QC and 850 L1/L2 Charges. A lot different to yours. The low mileage is perfectly understandable to me on a short range city commute vehicle and I myself only do about 5000km a year in it.

 

I wish my battery behave just the same, I was counting on it.

 

Dugimodo:

 

What to do about it I can't help you with but I think you are right to be concerned. If you keep the car I'd keep a close eye on the battery. Get your own OBD2 Bluetooth dongle and use leafspy to keep an eye on it, costs around $30.

 

Don't leave the dongle in permanently though, there's some suggestion it can increase the chances of a brake firmware failure that some people have experienced.

 

 

I have got one of the recommended dongles - BAFX. And extension cord with switch. I have read about brake issue and keeping safe, thanks for warning.


14 posts

Geek


  #2428781 28-Feb-2020 12:24
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Dugimodo:

 

Also have you checked the front suspension mount points? they are in a cup shaped depression under a plastic cover that snaps out either side of the windscreen just under the rear end of the bonnet when you lift it. If they vehicle has spent much time outside they can fill up with water and rust out, it's a known design flaw. A local leaf dealer supplied me with covers for mine and I got pitstop to clean off the rust and coat the bolts to prevent it.

 

Yes, I did. It looks good, not like my Tiida or Wingroad before.

 

Dugimodo:

 

I got my leaf from a local car dealer and regret not going to Hamilton EVs instead as they have helped me out a lot since buying mine and shown me all the issues to look out for. Another one is making sure you have a NZ legal charger rated for 220 - 240V AC. Mine is the japanese charger rated for 200V and technically isn't legal. It works fine, and is probably safe, but the dealer shouldn't have sold the car with it.

 

 

I have got basic red one. Going to buy another one with Commando and screen (longer one) as well as T2 to T1 cable and adapter.


1202 posts

Uber Geek


  #2428804 28-Feb-2020 13:04
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I agree something unusual is going on with that car.

 

I agree that is an excessively high number of slow and quick charges for the age and Kms of the car. For comparison my 2013 had 32,000kms on it when I got it, with approx 500 QC's and the L1/L2's were in the double digits (clearly owned in Japan by someone how didn't charge it at home).

 

That sharp of a drop on SOH is not natural/normal either, which could be explained by a BMS reset.

 

A battery swap would certainly be on the list of possibilities although if the QC's and L1/L2's are correctly, that kind of abuse/missuse would explain the batteries poor (true) state of health, but not why the indicated SOH was formerly so optimistic and now dropping rapidly.

 

Regarding your KM indication, the Japanese records are the best way to see if the km's are true. The Russians sell software for the Leaf that enables you to set the ODO to anything you want.

 

Reputable EV dealers offer a battery guaranty to protect you against nasty little surprises like this. The dealer I bought from offers a 1 year guaranty.


14 posts

Geek


  #2428812 28-Feb-2020 13:26
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tripper1000:

 

Regarding your KM indication, the Japanese records are the best way to see if the km's are true.

 

That's why I don't think that it's my case.

 

tripper1000:

 

The Russians sell software for the Leaf that enables you to set the ODO to anything you want.

 

There's a lot of underrated genius geeks in Russia and China as well who tempted to invent something good for abuse. My former school friend (in Russia) became kind of black hat finally (shame on him).


735 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2428814 28-Feb-2020 13:28
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At the EV event here in Auckland last year there was a panel on what to look for when buying a used Leaf with one of the things mentioned to look for was high amount of charges with low kms. This could indicate that it was used to power a house, which was said isn't that uncommon in Japan. Is it possible @XERG has a car that was used for that and the owner was routinely using free chargers to essentially power their home for free?


14 posts

Geek


  #2428816 28-Feb-2020 13:32
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tripper1000:

 

Reputable EV dealers offer a battery guaranty to protect you against nasty little surprises like this. The dealer I bought from offers a 1 year guaranty.

 

Sounds good. Right now gonna go and check how reputable is 2CheapCars.


14 posts

Geek


  #2428932 28-Feb-2020 16:07
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Obraik:

 

At the EV event here in Auckland last year there was a panel on what to look for when buying a used Leaf with one of the things mentioned to look for was high amount of charges with low kms. This could indicate that it was used to power a house, which was said isn't that uncommon in Japan. Is it possible @XERG has a car that was used for that and the owner was routinely using free chargers to essentially power their home for free?

 

Thanks for your input, Obraik,

 

This post really make sense in my battery case as there is similar amount of connections to QC and L1.

 

I've read recently about two way chargers trend but I didn't realize that it could be so spread stuff in Japan for some while. I don't know how much costs one kWt in Japan but if its price similar to NZ then previous user could save up to $8000 doing so.

 

 

 

BTW, I've got claim form from the yard to fill and sent it to the claim department.


5964 posts

Uber Geek


  #2429064 28-Feb-2020 20:40
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XERG:[snip] Right now gonna go and check how reputable is 2CheapCars.

 

 

They were fined $438,000 a few months back for Fair Trading Act breaches. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/2-cheap-cars-large-fine-sending-pretty-strong-sign-other-car-dealers-expert-says


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