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36 posts

Geek
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  Reply # 1781683 13-May-2017 15:45 2 people support this post Send private message quote this post

I would advocate for pushing the RUC for EVs onto petrol and diesel users. Simple and effective: ICE cars get (marginally) more expensive while EVs remain cheap. The incentive to buy an EV will increase over time.

RUC will kill EVs... It costs about 1.5c/km to run my Leaf, but RUCs are 6.2c/km?... that would more than quadruple the cost! People will do their numbers and find its not worth it to buy an EV.

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  Reply # 1781721 13-May-2017 18:15 Send private message quote this post

why don't we have tax credits like every other market does? isn't that the reason nissan don't sell the leaf here new?






 

 





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  Reply # 1781742 13-May-2017 19:13 One person supports this post Send private message quote this post

pogo: I would advocate for pushing the RUC for EVs onto petrol and diesel users. Simple and effective: ICE cars get (marginally) more expensive while EVs remain cheap. The incentive to buy an EV will increase over time.

RUC will kill EVs... It costs about 1.5c/km to run my Leaf, but RUCs are 6.2c/km?... that would more than quadruple the cost! People will do their numbers and find its not worth it to buy an EV.

 

I think everyone should pay RUC, but there should be a carbon tax on the burning of fossil fuels.

 

As it stands, there is no "cost" to burning fossil fuels vs using forms of energy that don't result in 2.3kg of CO2 per litre burned of petrol (average-sized petrol car).  

If we are talking about vehicles paying their fair share....then why is it petrol and diesel vehicles can emit CO2 and other pollutants / poisons for "free"? 

 

 





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1781743 13-May-2017 19:16 Send private message quote this post

darrenw:

 

I'm looking to buy a used LEAF and I checked out a Jap import Gen 1 at a dealer recently with 12 bars remaining, but Leaf Spy reports 82% SOH. I thought first bar disappears at 85%? Any reason why it wouldn't?

 

As an aside, it's had 1100 charge cycles (very few QCs) at an average of only 15 km/charge, which I guess is plausible. I'm just fishing for whether I should be wary of what Leaf Spy tells me, or wary of the vehicle itself! Any thoughts?

 

 

Dealership scanner (Nissan Consult3+) allows to erase/reset/reprog some metrics in Leaf. That is true not only for Leaf but for many modern cars. Some sellers know that. I am not surprised. By the way try to avoid buying Gen1 for many other reasons.

 

Once I saw Toyota Mark X at one big dealership.It had wear & tear which was not possible with claimed 69000 kms. My scanner revealed nearly 400000 kms (stored in non-erasable memory of the engine computer :-(

 

in another Mark X scanner revealed that some sensors related to automatic transmission were missed. Car had manual. How come? Under pressure owner admitted they changed gear.

 

LeafSpy has to be used by the buyer with clear understanding what they are looking at. Simple as: at the lowest possible level of charge (cells around 3V) look for voltage difference in mV. Hundreds - too bad. At high charge that could be very low - below 20mV. And that what sellers are usually show you.




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  Reply # 1781746 13-May-2017 19:28 Send private message quote this post

RUKI:

 

darrenw:

 

I'm looking to buy a used LEAF and I checked out a Jap import Gen 1 at a dealer recently with 12 bars remaining, but Leaf Spy reports 82% SOH. I thought first bar disappears at 85%? Any reason why it wouldn't?

 

As an aside, it's had 1100 charge cycles (very few QCs) at an average of only 15 km/charge, which I guess is plausible. I'm just fishing for whether I should be wary of what Leaf Spy tells me, or wary of the vehicle itself! Any thoughts?

 

 

Dealership scanner (Nissan Consult3+) allows to erase/reset/reprog some metrics in Leaf. That is true not only for Leaf but for many modern cars. Some sellers know that. I am not surprised. By the way try to avoid buying Gen1 for many other reasons.

 

Once I saw Toyota Mark X at one big dealership.It had wear & tear which was not possible with claimed 69000 kms. My scanner revealed nearly 400000 kms (stored in non-erasable memory of the engine computer :-(

 

in another Mark X scanner revealed that some sensors related to automatic transmission were missed. Car had manual. How come? Under pressure owner admitted they changed gear.

 

LeafSpy has to be used by the buyer with clear understanding what they are looking at. Simple as: at the lowest possible level of charge (cells around 3V) look for voltage difference in mV. Hundreds - too bad. At high charge that could be very low - below 20mV. And that what sellers are usually show you.

 

 

Good advice. 

I use LEAF Spy Pro.....which also shows the VIN of the vehicle examined. The free version does not, so you can't be sure what vehicle was actually examined. 

Best thing to do is deal with a reputable dealer. I have bought two LEAFs from AutoLink in Grey Lynn (Auckland) and been very happy with them both. 





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I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1781747 13-May-2017 19:28 Send private message quote this post

Also, battery modules can be swapped to older, more degraded ones keeping old computer (LBC) which will show history for different cell set. As a buyer you have no way to check that.

 

Same applicable for any battery operated EV or PHEV or Hybrid. Dodgy battery swaps in Prius/Camry Hybrid are now common. That is one of the reasons I have created that small program which works with 2D scanner to identify dodgy Prius/Camry/Lexus battery swaps.

 

For Nissan Leaf - the best way is to have that car you want to buy to be driven from full charge to complete battery drain recording metrics (e.g. by Leafspy or Consult3+) before start and at finish. Even if there was battery swap - that way you can at least capture performance of the battery here and now. Must have procedure for any Jap imported battery operated car IMO.

 

 


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Geek
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  Reply # 1781752 13-May-2017 19:42 Send private message quote this post

Let's think about numbers: If EVs had 6.2c/km RUC then to keep them equally financially attractive vs ICE cars they would have to also charge an extra 6.2c/km on petrol/diesel. Like that's going to happen!!!

Conversely, pushing the RUC of EVs onto ICE car owners would only be a tiny increase in their cost per km (because there aren't many EVs on the road yet), yet the financial incentive to own an EV would remain intact.

RUC will kill EVs (unless perhaps if EVs become as convenient as ICE cars - a fair few years away still).

I don't mind a carbon tax, but I doubt it will be very high.

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  Reply # 1781756 13-May-2017 19:50 One person supports this post Send private message quote this post

Linuxluver:

 

pogo: I would advocate for pushing the RUC for EVs onto petrol and diesel users. Simple and effective: ICE cars get (marginally) more expensive while EVs remain cheap. The incentive to buy an EV will increase over time.

RUC will kill EVs... It costs about 1.5c/km to run my Leaf, but RUCs are 6.2c/km?... that would more than quadruple the cost! People will do their numbers and find its not worth it to buy an EV.

 

I think everyone should pay RUC, but there should be a carbon tax on the burning of fossil fuels.

 

As it stands, there is no "cost" to burning fossil fuels vs using forms of energy that don't result in 2.3kg of CO2 per litre burned of petrol (average-sized petrol car).  

If we are talking about vehicles paying their fair share....then why is it petrol and diesel vehicles can emit CO2 and other pollutants / poisons for "free"? 

 

 

 

 

If you want a CO2 tax, I think you have to tax the farmers first. Anyone wants to go and speak to the farmers?


gzt

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  Reply # 1781774 13-May-2017 21:06 Send private message quote this post

Gotta start somewhere. CO2 reduction for personal transport and mass transit is more or less a reality. CO2 reduction for something like dairy farming requires more research. Dealing with CO2 on an industry/sector basis might be sensible.

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  Reply # 1781851 14-May-2017 10:17 Send private message quote this post

If we want to reduce CO2, then taxing this rather than focussing on road duty seems the sensible way to do it.  That way you catch jet-skis, speedway, patio heaters, recreational aviation etc etc.

 

Probably a quick way for a government to ensure they are voted out though, unless more voters become more convinced that this is a pressing problem worth changing lifestyle for.  While the most expensive real estate in my town is that right next to the sea, I think a carbon tax is going to be a hard sell.


36 posts

Geek
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  Reply # 1781855 14-May-2017 10:43 Send private message quote this post

The problem with a carbon tax is that consumers need a financially viable alternative to switch to. The RUC for EVs will reduce the financial incentive such that people will just have to grit their teeth and pay the carbon tax for their ICE car.

I.e. for a carbon tax to be effective RUCs for EVs must be suspended, at least until EVs are as affordable and convenient as an ICE car.

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  Reply # 1781859 14-May-2017 10:55 Send private message quote this post

What is the co2 cost of air travel, overseas shipping of private goods and overseas shipping of food and other items of daily living - remember we don't make anything here. Harvest, ship to China, process, ship back here, make stuff, ship overseas, sell. Surely that is more than my motorcar that i drive once a week?

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  Reply # 1781874 14-May-2017 11:50 Send private message quote this post

joker97: What is the co2 cost of air travel, overseas shipping of private goods and overseas shipping of food and other items of daily living - remember we don't make anything here. Harvest, ship to China, process, ship back here, make stuff, ship overseas, sell. Surely that is more than my motorcar that i drive once a week?

 

Exactly - hence why taxpayers, or people who can't afford EVs, subsidising a relatively few people to drive around in EVs is probably not a good solution either economically or environmentally.  You'd probably get better ROI insulating more houses or giving some grants to get the 1% most polluting vehicles off the road, or implementing compulsory emission testing at WOFs


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1781876 14-May-2017 11:53 Send private message quote this post

joker97: What is the co2 cost of air travel, overseas shipping of private goods and overseas shipping of food and other items of daily living - remember we don't make anything here. .....

 

I am not the only one who is exporting - i.e. make here and send overseas. What's more I am recycling local stuff, sometimes up to 95% which otherwise would go into our land fields. Which feels good.... while dealers are importing Gen 1 Leafs, which would become 1500 kg of locally dumped waste in less than 5-10 years... If you want EV - buy at least GEN2 Leaf or those EVs which are supported by the dealers - i.e. battery availability in the future - so that those will not become waste.

 

Correction- some would argue that dumped car is going to the scrap yard and sold for parts. That is true but Li batteries from those will not be accepted at the scrap yard and either will go to the DIY-ers for their solar or golf cart projects.

 

Eventually there will be quite a pile of degraded Li batteries - Leaf's is ~240kg (and other traction batteries - first Prius is NiMH ~85kg) which need to be taken care off.

 

Major car dealers have joined an agreement (there is a paper online) of taking care of traction battery waste. I've tried to trace any publicly available info whereabouts those are going (e.g. Toyota sends NiMH packs to Palmerston) without any information being available about where those are end up....

 

EPA issues paperwork for importers/exporter of the batteries and I have not seen any car dealers listed there yet - not for export of used ones, not for import of new ones.


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  Reply # 1781897 14-May-2017 12:39 2 people support this post Send private message quote this post

Can we start a new thread if we are going to talk about subsidies, co2 taxes?

This thread is supposed to be about one particular model of electric car.

A.

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