Nissan LEAF - General

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#1826252 20-Jul-2017 22:17

PhantomNVD:
ubergeeknz:

RUKI:

When shopping for Nissan Leaf - do not get much excited about ODO or number of "bars".

The reason for this warning is:

- Leaf's ODO is changeable without trace in less than a minute (expect that to be done in Japan)

- Number of "bars" - i.e. record of battery degradation is erasable without trace in few minutes (expect that to be done in Japan).

- Erasing number of charges - is done without trace in few minutes independently from two records above. As of today no information that somebody is changing # charges, however - no obstacles for those who managed the above to do the other bit.

We do not know yet how long (number of cycles) will it take for the computers to pick up the real "degradation" but would be interesting to conduct that kind of test on "8-9 Bar" Leaf.

Seems like it doesn't take much to update. Maybe one or two battery charge / discharge cycles. General wisdom is that a range test is the best way to know the true battery SOH.

But how many second hand car sales will allow a prospective buyer a full 100km+ test drive to see if the battery holds out?

With the reputable vendors you won't need one. If they unwittingly give you a shonky car they'll replace it. But they tend to only deal with reputable people at the other end, so it's not been a problem if you avoid the cowboys who didn't know who to trust. I fully believe there are importers new to EVs who themselves have been ripped off through dealing with people they didn't know in Japan. The price probably looked too good.......

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#1826256 20-Jul-2017 22:24

PhantomNVD:
ubergeeknz:

RUKI:

When shopping for Nissan Leaf - do not get much excited about ODO or number of "bars".

The reason for this warning is:

- Leaf's ODO is changeable without trace in less than a minute (expect that to be done in Japan)

- Number of "bars" - i.e. record of battery degradation is erasable without trace in few minutes (expect that to be done in Japan).

- Erasing number of charges - is done without trace in few minutes independently from two records above. As of today no information that somebody is changing # charges, however - no obstacles for those who managed the above to do the other bit.

We do not know yet how long (number of cycles) will it take for the computers to pick up the real "degradation" but would be interesting to conduct that kind of test on "8-9 Bar" Leaf.

Seems like it doesn't take much to update. Maybe one or two battery charge / discharge cycles. General wisdom is that a range test is the best way to know the true battery SOH.

But how many second hand car sales will allow a prospective buyer a full 100km+ test drive to see if the battery holds out?

I know GVI have done it for some buyers, and allowed buyers to take the car for a day or two. A lot of dealers will. Buying privately? Not so much but with any car purchase privately, YMMV, just in this case, quite literally.

Linuxluver

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#1826887 22-Jul-2017 09:24

ubergeeknz:

PhantomNVD:

But how many second hand car sales will allow a prospective buyer a full 100km+ test drive to see if the battery holds out?

I know GVI have done it for some buyers, and allowed buyers to take the car for a day or two. A lot of dealers will. Buying privately? Not so much but with any car purchase privately, YMMV, just in this case, quite literally.

One of things that is relevant here is the idea of "high mileage". In a petrol car, the more kilometers it's driven, the more wear and tear.

For EVs is also true, but much less so. The more important factor is the state of the traction battery....and contrary to usual rules of car-buying.....an EV with more kms will likely have a traction battery in better condition than an EV with very low kms. A battery that may have been sitting around for weeks / months in whatever state (usually not known) stands a good chance of degrading more quickly - and already - than an EV that's been driven 50-100km / day for a couple of years.

My own LEAF has now been driven over 33,000km and the battery is still 100% SoH. Just like new. But other Evs the same age (18 months), driven less......have already seem some (apparent) degradation.

I put "apparent" in there because I suspect if you took those 2016 30kWh EVs on 95% and drove them 100km / day for a week and fast-charged them a few times...you'd find some of the lost capacity may well return.

It's a different thing to buying normal cars. Distance driven is less important because EVs suffer less wear and tear.....and it's the battery that matters....but the battery may be recoverable if the reason for apparent degradation is just not being driven enough or left for too long at high states of charge......or just cold. Optimal temperature is 27C. A battery at 12C will report a lower SoH.

Some cold days, if you want full range, it;s not a bad idea to go out for a drive, down to say 25%.....then fast charge the car to 80%....the battery is now warmer - probably around 20C-25C-....and then plug it in to get to 100%...and the SoH can improve by anywhere up to 5%...and the warmer battery will provide about 10km more range. (Assuming 30kWh battery LEAF).

In the summer you want to adopt strategies to keep the battery cooler... :-)

Or buy a Tesla or other EV that actively manages battery temperature. But the main attraction of the LEAF is that's cheap. Looking at how it works, I suspect it was designed with colder weather in mind. It holds on to heat...and that would be important in colder countries.

The point of all that is that EV vendors (and buyers) who know this aren't worried about people taking the car for a day or week.....as it doesn't really matter in the long run. But I didn't want to just say so.......it needs some explaining.

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#1826898 22-Jul-2017 10:14

Linuxluver: Definitely buy from a major, *reputable* EV vendor (GVI, EV Central, Autolink, Volt Vehicles, PlugnDrive Man). The cowboys out there are sometimes up to no good as far as fiddling the bars and other visible measures.

Thanks for the list! I did think twice about a “2cheap” gen2 leaf (being sold as a 2011) as it seems to have the model ‘s’ dash and square charger under the hood AND 2 supplied chargers but cost only 10,980 and was missing the cover of the ‘tow hatch’ on the front bumper... suspicious indeed!

Unfortunately, the sellers you list seem to start at 14-16K (except for one 9 bar at just under 10K)

Do Harwood, AutoMe, BlueStone or AMT motors ring any alarms? They seem to have 3-5 gen1 leafs each and are in my current price range.

I think the specialist EV sellers might either be relying on their reputations or know more accurately how to price their products or slow to reduce prices to the low end (mostly stocking newer models) as perhaps their is more money in it at that end and they are doing well out of the middle to higher market. 🤷‍♂️

As you say elsewhere, mileage is not really as relevant in an EV, but most (uninformed?) sellers still discount heavily at the 40-60K range, and some didn’t even know what I meant when I asked for ‘bars’ and charging rates, let alone LeafSpy reports! I guess I’m hoping to be the canny buyer who gets a good deal due to being better informed than the 2nd hand dealers who are only just beginning to see EV as worth selling and don’t always know what they have or how to market it well yet?

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#1826957 22-Jul-2017 11:43

...
I think the specialist EV sellers ...

Auto importer in NZ work with different Auction houses in Japan. The way those many auction houses work is heavily reliant on the description made by 3-rd party. Dealer in NZ and their counterpart in Japan in 99.99% cases will not be personally inspecting the car....

Some local dealers only target damaged cars where their purchase price is discounted heavily because of the damage. Usually those cars are imported with the spare door or bumper carried with the car and fixed locally (repaint or panel beating job).

Leafs have aluminum doors and panel beating job on those is impossible - only thik layer of "plaster". I am aware of at least 1 Leaf being imported like that with a door damage and sold on Trademe.

There are tools to check for the panel-beating job (I do not have those)

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Linuxluver

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#1827794 23-Jul-2017 18:46

RUKI:

...
I think the specialist EV sellers ...

Auto importer in NZ work with different Auction houses in Japan. The way those many auction houses work is heavily reliant on the description made by 3-rd party. Dealer in NZ and their counterpart in Japan in 99.99% cases will not be personally inspecting the car....

Some local dealers only target damaged cars where their purchase price is discounted heavily because of the damage. Usually those cars are imported with the spare door or bumper carried with the car and fixed locally (repaint or panel beating job).

Leafs have aluminum doors and panel beating job on those is impossible - only thik layer of "plaster". I am aware of at least 1 Leaf being imported like that with a door damage and sold on Trademe.

There are tools to check for the panel-beating job (I do not have those)

I'm told UK LEAFs have steel doors to comply with EU safety / crash regs.

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#1827860 23-Jul-2017 19:44

How does the different door type change the safety aspect?

Actually I was under the impression the doors were some kind of composite plastic, so light.

Linuxluver

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#1828093 24-Jul-2017 08:23

gzt: How does the different door type change the safety aspect? Actually I was under the impression the doors were some kind of composite plastic, so light.

You'd have to Google that. :-)

I'm sure they aren't plastic. Guessing: Steel will be stronger but crumple better? Aluminium tends to be brittle.

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#1829307 25-Jul-2017 19:28

Linuxluver:

gzt: .....Actually I was under the impression the doors were some kind of composite plastic, so light.

You'd have to Google that. :-)

I'm sure they aren't plastic. ....

use magnet (e.g. from HDD) to check if it is steel or not, put something to protect the paint from scratching :-)

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Linuxluver

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#1830366 25-Jul-2017 21:49

RUKI:

Linuxluver:

gzt: .....Actually I was under the impression the doors were some kind of composite plastic, so light.

You'd have to Google that. :-)

I'm sure they aren't plastic. ....

use magnet (e.g. from HDD) to check if it is steel or not, put something to protect the paint from scratching :-)

They are definitely steel as I have door magnets that stick very firmly when attached.

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daparrot

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#1830387 25-Jul-2017 22:30

Interesting on my 2016 Gen2 model X - ex Japan

A magnet sticks on the mudguards front and rear ( the corner bit between the door and the bumper )

Sticks to the roof

Doesen't stick to bonnet, or doors ( or plastic bumpers )

I guess the steel is there to give crash strength and everything else is done for weight

Linuxluver:

RUKI:

Linuxluver:

gzt: .....Actually I was under the impression the doors were some kind of composite plastic, so light.

You'd have to Google that. :-)

I'm sure they aren't plastic. ....

use magnet (e.g. from HDD) to check if it is steel or not, put something to protect the paint from scratching :-)

They are definitely steel as I have door magnets that stick very firmly when attached.

PhantomNVD

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#1830394 25-Jul-2017 23:02

So, bringing home my 2011 Leaf (11 bars 👍) tomorrow, with a supplied 16A commando plug for charging.
Once my sparky has upgraded the garage, what might the best power Co. be for (overnight/off peak) charging to get the maximum saving? Currently with powershop as a low user (LPG water and wood fire heating).

Also, Is there a ‘power curve’ in charging a leaf that would work best with something like Electric Kiwi’s free Hour of Power? I know the last 20% charges slower, but does the first 20% draw more Amps too? (Eg set the free hour to match the cars ‘start charge’ timer)

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#1830570 26-Jul-2017 11:25

UK Leaf and Gen 1 (2011-2012) = steel doors and bonnet

Ex. Japan Gen 2 (2012-) = aluminium doors and bonnet

Done for weight reduction

Steel in UK due to EU safety rules or somesuch

ubergeeknz

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#1830571 26-Jul-2017 11:25

PhantomNVD: I know the last 20% charges slower, but does the first 20% draw more Amps too? (Eg set the free hour to match the cars ‘start charge’ timer)

Yes, charge is fastest at low battery level, and slows throughout charging. Which means more current drawn at the start of the charge.

PhantomNVD

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#1832564 27-Jul-2017 22:42

Thanks 👍

FWIW I met my closest PlugShare neighbour Stu in Pokeno, who also showed me a ‘known flaw’ in Leaf’s (Leaves?) on the top of the front suspension where it has a lovely ‘cup’ of water and slowly rusts away at the top.

Anyone else dealt with this effectively yet? Thinking to dry it out rust convert, and then just silicone fill the whole thing as it’s likely a once-in-10-years access issue if it’s not still rusting...

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwROE3hsIXfpSTRiZXJCWTl1TGs

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