Nissan LEAF - General

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1467 posts

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#1840253 6-Aug-2017 20:56

dejadeadnz:

frednz:

All I can say to the above is roll on the day when brand NZ new Nissan Leafs with proper NZ support are available at a price no greater than $40,000! Reading here and also on Facebook about all the problems that can arise when buying second-hand EVs sure is enough to make me wait until NZ new is available at a reasonable price. Well, I might go to $50,000 for NZ new, but that currently doesn't get me in the door! Perhaps one of the political parties will offer decent subsidies for NZ new buyers?

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I like the technology and have enjoyed driving my work's EVs but I can't take seriously some of the breathless excitement being expressed by people over buying from some random dealer of 2nd hand vehicles whose current entity have only been around for a few years. I looked at GVI's website and, for example, it's almost impossible to get any concrete information on the extent/coverage of their warranties. More importantly, looking at the Trademe ad that MarkH67 was excitedly mentioning, all I saw were reasons to be alarmed. For example, this is what the ad had to say for warranty:

Exclusive EV Battery / Mechanical Warranty Cover 12, 24 and 36 Months with Roadside Assistance

Sorry but on this planet and in light of our CGA, I wish the best of luck to any dealer who tries to claim that an EV, which is relatively high-priced as an upfront, capital investment, should only last for 12 months (depending on what warranty option that you buy). This especially since EVs are meant to suffer from less wear and tear. Yeah sure they didn't say that your CGA rights don't apply (because that would be illegal) but I wouldn't have any confidence in an entity's willingness to observe the CGA when they offer warranty options like this. Until I get to deal with the actual manufacturers directly or at least more established, reputable dealers, I am not willing to take a punt yet. Car manufacturers/dealers are, as a rule, far too sociopathic to risk too much upon.

Yes, I can also see a few reasons to be alarmed, particularly when a dealer says this about a Nissan Leaf:

This vehicle is superior to Japanese imports as everything is in English, making the on-screen information easy to understand & configure, adjustable units such as Miles or Kilometres, Charging control timers, Climate control timers, etc.

It is also supplied with the Factory portable charging lead, 2x Key Fobs, Owner’s Manual (Being English of course!

So, it seems that it's far better to get a UK Nissan Leaf than a Japanese one. Interpreting the quote above would suggest that a Japanese import might require a NZ owner to take a course in Japanese before driving!

So what do dealers do to convert a Japanese import to one that a NZ owner can deal with, including having NZ maps / GPS etc?

One dealer told me that the best buy is a Nissan Leaf Tekna, 30kw, 2016 or 2017, but when I checked the prices for these, they were up around the $40,000 mark, and one was even $42,000 (more than some BMW i3's).

So what are the main differences between a UK Leaf and a Japanese Leaf, are the UK ones built better etc?

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dejadeadnz

2394 posts

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#1840267 6-Aug-2017 21:43

Linuxluver:

What makes it possible - at least for the Nissan LEAF - is that mechanically it's probably one of the most reliable cars ever built.

Absolutely, for a normal petrol car with thousands of moving parts and an engine containing thousands of explosions per minute......you need service backup.

I know it's hard to go from one paradigm to another.......old assumptions that don't apply still work strongly on the mind.

I'm just going to respond to the above but there's a certain theme in this kind of reply that's quite tiresome. Breathless excitement of owners defending their new "toys" aside, every sane person looking at this thread knows that EVs are the future. In some cases (like the Tesla 3), they are already amazing. But no amount of excitement, self-anointed smugness or even moral superiority for merely choosing one form of transportation over another will help someone finding themselves stuck with with an inoperable heap with no one to sue if Hick Random EV Importer Ltd with a capital of $100 goes under in the future. Look, on a theoretical level, it is highly likely that EV cars will be very reliable but taking me and my wife as an example, as people who prefer new cars or at least near-new, no such options are available or, if they are, it requires me to deal with some random no-name bunch and to take their word for it that their UI conversations and other works on the car are safe and reliable etc. And given the relatively low age of EVs and small sample sizes (and remembering all the history of how supposedly foolproof technologies in the car world have gone kaput), I am not prepared to uncritically accept the "EVs are more reliable. Guaranteed!" (I'm paraphrasing, obviously) line literally.

Sorry but I've got a serious day job to do and, in the case of my wife, she literally has lives to save daily. We haven't got the time to battle with a dealer nor do we wish to cope with the stress of not knowing whether the lot that sold us the car will be around to take any responsibility in a few years' time. And supposedly one branch of Nissan does servicing on the Leaf according to one EV owner? Are they going to keep doing it? What about if I move out of Auckland. I manage and handle commercial and contractual risks worth tens of millions daily -- I just can't look myself in the mirror and take what I advise people at work to do to be prudent etc seriously if I go around managing my own life like this. And we haven't even started on the admitted ease with it battery condition information etc can be fiddled with by dishonest sellers.

Until the manufacturers put their own networks and reputation fully on the line in NZ in relation to EVs, going into it is literally a leap of faith worth tens of thousands of dollars.

Linuxluver

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#1840273 6-Aug-2017 21:52

frednz:

dejadeadnz:

frednz:

All I can say to the above is roll on the day when brand NZ new Nissan Leafs with proper NZ support are available at a price no greater than $40,000! Reading here and also on Facebook about all the problems that can arise when buying second-hand EVs sure is enough to make me wait until NZ new is available at a reasonable price. Well, I might go to $50,000 for NZ new, but that currently doesn't get me in the door! Perhaps one of the political parties will offer decent subsidies for NZ new buyers?

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I like the technology and have enjoyed driving my work's EVs but I can't take seriously some of the breathless excitement being expressed by people over buying from some random dealer of 2nd hand vehicles whose current entity have only been around for a few years. I looked at GVI's website and, for example, it's almost impossible to get any concrete information on the extent/coverage of their warranties. More importantly, looking at the Trademe ad that MarkH67 was excitedly mentioning, all I saw were reasons to be alarmed. For example, this is what the ad had to say for warranty:

Exclusive EV Battery / Mechanical Warranty Cover 12, 24 and 36 Months with Roadside Assistance

Sorry but on this planet and in light of our CGA, I wish the best of luck to any dealer who tries to claim that an EV, which is relatively high-priced as an upfront, capital investment, should only last for 12 months (depending on what warranty option that you buy). This especially since EVs are meant to suffer from less wear and tear. Yeah sure they didn't say that your CGA rights don't apply (because that would be illegal) but I wouldn't have any confidence in an entity's willingness to observe the CGA when they offer warranty options like this. Until I get to deal with the actual manufacturers directly or at least more established, reputable dealers, I am not willing to take a punt yet. Car manufacturers/dealers are, as a rule, far too sociopathic to risk too much upon.

Yes, I can also see a few reasons to be alarmed, particularly when a dealer says this about a Nissan Leaf:

This vehicle is superior to Japanese imports as everything is in English, making the on-screen information easy to understand & configure, adjustable units such as Miles or Kilometres, Charging control timers, Climate control timers, etc.

It is also supplied with the Factory portable charging lead, 2x Key Fobs, Owner’s Manual (Being English of course!

So, it seems that it's far better to get a UK Nissan Leaf than a Japanese one. Interpreting the quote above would suggest that a Japanese import might require a NZ owner to take a course in Japanese before driving!

So what do dealers do to convert a Japanese import to one that a NZ owner can deal with, including having NZ maps / GPS etc?

One dealer told me that the best buy is a Nissan Leaf Tekna, 30kw, 2016 or 2017, but when I checked the prices for these, they were up around the $40,000 mark, and one was even $42,000 (more than some BMW i3's).

So what are the main differences between a UK Leaf and a Japanese Leaf, are the UK ones built better etc?

I'll answer as best I can, based on what I know.

If you want an all-English LEAF then you want a UK LEAF. The head unit will be in English and the dash will be in English. The car comes with EU maps - UK to Poland...so useless here.
The UK LEAF tends to also come with a 6.7kw AC internal charger, allowing charging at 32amp / 7kw. This allows a 30kw battery to be fully charged from empty, at home, in 3.5-4 hours. (I have one).
The UK LEAF has steels doors to conform to EU crash safety standards.

The Japan LEAF has a Japanese head unit and dash. The S model (lowest trim) can be completely replaced as it doesn't integrate with the car energy systems. The X and G models must remain in Japanese. But this is not really a problem for anyone with a smart phone that can run Google Translate. You just hold the phone up to the Japanese display with Translate in camera mode and the text is translated in the camera image in real-time. Most people find this more than good enough. The dash can also be converted in firmware from Japanese to English. GVI in Penrose do this for about $25. They also hold "clinics" around the country where LEAF owners can book in their car for a one-time conversion to English. @RUKI here on GZ can also offer a similar service in converting the dash to English.

The Japanese LEAF has aluminium doors.
The Japanese LEAF can also come with "Lane Assist" - telling the driver if they are drifting out of their lane - which the UK LEAF does not have.
The Japanese LEAF comes with a 3.3kw internal AC charger so maximum AC charge rate is 3.3kw / 16amp. This can fully charge an empty battery in 7-8 hours.

Generally, maps and GPS in either car - even if we had NZ maps - aren't as good as a phone mounted on the dash with Google Maps. Google is always more up to date and offers more options and services.

These issues are minor in the grand scheme. Being able to buy a 30kWh LEAF from Japan for around $30k is great value. I could happily use Google Translate to read a few screens if necessary. Once you know the screens, you don't need to use it anymore anyway.

I own a 2016 UK "Tekna" with a 30kWh battery. Yes, I paid well over $40K for it...and don't regret it for a second. I wanted the bigger battery and the faster AC charging. The car is awesome...and the 30kWh battery has enough range to be both a city car and a cross-country car. In April / May I drove it from Auckland to Bluff and then to Cape Reinga and back to Auckland. I regularly drive it to eastern Bay of Plenty (between 6am and Noon) and / or Napier. It's been to Wellington and back on SH1 as of last week, thanks to all the new fast chargers along that route.

I do plan to get a Tesla Model 3 when it's available. But until then my LEAF is more than good enough.

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jfanning

438 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1840275 6-Aug-2017 21:54

Linuxluver:

There shouldn't be.

Maybe colder air is more dense.....so greater wind resistance?

Absolutely the range will be less if you live in Ranfurly and go out and jump into your LEAF on a -5C morning and the battery is 0C. But a warm battery (25C) should take the car just as far in July as it would in January.

How long does it generally take the likes of your Leaf for the batteries to warm up? Just interested in the general effect on winter with these cars, being in Invercargill, we don't get it as cold as Ranfurly etc, but at 5:30am this year we have had quite a few -3 and -4 mornings, with it being around 0 - 2C inside the garage

Linuxluver

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#1840277 6-Aug-2017 22:04

jfanning:

Linuxluver:

There shouldn't be.

Maybe colder air is more dense.....so greater wind resistance?

Absolutely the range will be less if you live in Ranfurly and go out and jump into your LEAF on a -5C morning and the battery is 0C. But a warm battery (25C) should take the car just as far in July as it would in January.

How long does it generally take the likes of your Leaf for the batteries to warm up? Just interested in the general effect on winter with these cars, being in Invercargill, we don't get it as cold as Ranfurly etc, but at 5:30am this year we have had quite a few -3 and -4 mornings, with it being around 0 - 2C inside the garage

Depends on what you need it to warm up to. :-)

It seems to warm by about 2-3C if driven for half an hour at 80kph or more. Fast charging it will warm it up faster.....but I'm not sure fast warming is a good idea as the first resort. If you're thinking of the drive to Dunedin via Balclutha, by the time you got to Gore the LEAF would have warmed a bit...and a top-up on the charger at HVS in Gore might be useful. Definitely avoid the Old Coach Road. It's shorter but a lot more hilly...and will chew up more power. I've done both. Gore for the win.

By the time you got to Balclutha the battery should be much warmer...and a charge at the Warehouse there would see your range pretty close to summer time after that.

It takes a wee while to warm up by driving. If you really want best range, keep the car in a garage heated to about 16C....and the warmer the better if you can afford it. :-)

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jfanning

438 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1840278 6-Aug-2017 22:07

Linuxluver:

Depends on what you need it to warm up to. :-)

It seems to warm by about 2-3C if driven for half an hour at 80kph or more. Fast charging it will warm it up faster.....but I'm not sure fast warming is a good idea as the first resort. If you're thinking of the drive to Dunedin via Balclutha, by the time you got to Gore the LEAF would have warmed a bit...and a top-up on the charger at HVS in Gore might be useful. Definitely avoid the Old Coach Road. It's shorter but a lot more hilly...and will chew up more power. I've done both. Gore for the win.

By the time you got to Balclutha the battery should be much warmer...and a charge at the Warehouse there would see your range pretty close to summer time after that.

It takes a wee while to warm up by driving. If you really want best range, keep the car in a garage heated to about 16C.

ok, that makes sense. Most of the travelling we would do would be around town, so 3 - 5km trips at a time.

Linuxluver

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#1840286 6-Aug-2017 22:30

jfanning:

Linuxluver:

Depends on what you need it to warm up to. :-)

It seems to warm by about 2-3C if driven for half an hour at 80kph or more. Fast charging it will warm it up faster.....but I'm not sure fast warming is a good idea as the first resort. If you're thinking of the drive to Dunedin via Balclutha, by the time you got to Gore the LEAF would have warmed a bit...and a top-up on the charger at HVS in Gore might be useful. Definitely avoid the Old Coach Road. It's shorter but a lot more hilly...and will chew up more power. I've done both. Gore for the win.

By the time you got to Balclutha the battery should be much warmer...and a charge at the Warehouse there would see your range pretty close to summer time after that.

It takes a wee while to warm up by driving. If you really want best range, keep the car in a garage heated to about 16C.

ok, that makes sense. Most of the travelling we would do would be around town, so 3 - 5km trips at a time.

Then you don't really care. You've got more range on a single charge than you need...and you can always top up at the fast charger by the city hall if you need more.

Nice. :)

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MarkH67

517 posts

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#1840301 7-Aug-2017 02:36

jfanning:

ok, that makes sense. Most of the travelling we would do would be around town, so 3 - 5km trips at a time.

That sort of distance makes me cringe if done in a fossil fuel burner. The FFB wont be able to get up to operating temperature with trips that short and that is not all that good for them (and lousy for fuel efficiency). In an EV (full battery EV or plug-in hybrid) that distance is just fine, super easy to get that range and you don't even need to charge every day.

Linuxluver

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#1840305 7-Aug-2017 07:12

dejadeadnz:

Linuxluver:

What makes it possible - at least for the Nissan LEAF - is that mechanically it's probably one of the most reliable cars ever built.

Absolutely, for a normal petrol car with thousands of moving parts and an engine containing thousands of explosions per minute......you need service backup.

I know it's hard to go from one paradigm to another.......old assumptions that don't apply still work strongly on the mind.

I'm just going to respond to the above but there's a certain theme in this kind of reply that's quite tiresome. Breathless excitement of owners defending their new "toys" aside, every sane person looking at this thread knows that EVs are the future. In some cases (like the Tesla 3), they are already amazing. But no amount of excitement, self-anointed smugness or even moral superiority for merely choosing one form of transportation over another will help someone finding themselves stuck with with an inoperable heap with no one to sue if Hick Random EV Importer Ltd with a capital of $100 goes under in the future. Look, on a theoretical level, it is highly likely that EV cars will be very reliable but taking me and my wife as an example, as people who prefer new cars or at least near-new, no such options are available or, if they are, it requires me to deal with some random no-name bunch and to take their word for it that their UI conversations and other works on the car are safe and reliable etc. And given the relatively low age of EVs and small sample sizes (and remembering all the history of how supposedly foolproof technologies in the car world have gone kaput), I am not prepared to uncritically accept the "EVs are more reliable. Guaranteed!" (I'm paraphrasing, obviously) line literally.

Sorry but I've got a serious day job to do and, in the case of my wife, she literally has lives to save daily. We haven't got the time to battle with a dealer nor do we wish to cope with the stress of not knowing whether the lot that sold us the car will be around to take any responsibility in a few years' time. And supposedly one branch of Nissan does servicing on the Leaf according to one EV owner? Are they going to keep doing it? What about if I move out of Auckland. I manage and handle commercial and contractual risks worth tens of millions daily -- I just can't look myself in the mirror and take what I advise people at work to do to be prudent etc seriously if I go around managing my own life like this. And we haven't even started on the admitted ease with it battery condition information etc can be fiddled with by dishonest sellers.

Until the manufacturers put their own networks and reputation fully on the line in NZ in relation to EVs, going into it is literally a leap of faith worth tens of thousands of dollars.

So you only buy NZ-new vehicles and don't own or drive any 2nd-hand imports? The 2nd-hand petrol and diesel imports are the majority of cars on NZ roads.....and they are sold with the same kind of warranty you're seeing on second-hand electric imports.

If I read you right, it's not the electric drive-train you're concerned about, it's the manufacturer support for whatever vehicle.

But if you drive any 2nd-hand petrol imports....I'm just not seeing the difference. If they break, you pay to get them fixed....and that's the same with any imported second-hand EV. You'd pay someone to fix it.

If you want NZ-new, then buy a Hyundai Ioniq, a BMW i3, a Renault Zoe (from Renault), or a Tesla from Tesla. The price range there runs from $59K to $200k. But you have choices.

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RUKI

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#1840515 7-Aug-2017 12:21

a) over-quoting is bad, in other High-Tech forums I am the member of - it is prohibited, hence "circumcision" from above:

Re:

....... the ad had to say for warranty: ....Exclusive EV Battery / Mechanical Warranty Cover 12, 24 and 36 Months with Roadside Assistance

Re;

......... what do dealers do to convert a Japanese import to one that a NZ owner can deal with, including having NZ maps / GPS etc?

=================

- "Roadside Assistance" to the EV with failed battery currently in New Zealand is only limited to your car being towed from A to B. Nothing can be done on site if say one modules died in that EV. And even if the spare 240KG battery is in the "Road Assister's" Ute - they would need special tools to register that battery with your Leaf. As of today none of the dealers have those. I did not have a chance to test my tools yet, which suppose to do exactly that.

FYI - just swap of the EV battery on your Leaf without it's registration in the VCM will not work.

- Nissan Cluster can be converted from Japanese to English - I can do that.

- AV Unit can be swapped to the US/UK unit and that is what dealers do if you are wiling to pay extra. Both rows of buttons have to be swapped as well.

No GPS for New Zealand currently for original AV Unit.

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PhantomNVD

2619 posts

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#1840548 7-Aug-2017 13:15

Re: “No GPS for New Zealand currently for original AV Unit.“

Surely the original (2011) NZ new ones came with NZ maps and could be clones to be installed in the memory slot for the English unit?

However, I think I read somewhere in this very thread that the NZ maps haven’t been updated and someone saw themselves “wacking across paddocks” when driving down the Waikato Expressway, so they’d only be useful inner city where there haven’t been as much change in the last 5 years...

jfanning

438 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1840574 7-Aug-2017 14:04

MarkH67:

That sort of distance makes me cringe if done in a fossil fuel burner. The FFB wont be able to get up to operating temperature with trips that short and that is not all that good for them (and lousy for fuel efficiency). In an EV (full battery EV or plug-in hybrid) that distance is just fine, super easy to get that range and you don't even need to charge every day.

Invercargill is a small place, and it has been know to rain, or get on the colder side once or twice a year, at least we don't have a traffic problem where we are sitting for ages going no where. But I'm afraid those types of distances in petrol cars are reality for a large number of the population, and will be for a number of years to come. There is no incentive from the current government, and none of the running parties to try and change this.

I think your concern should be towards the people that drive even shorter distances, then circle the shop for ages waiting for a car park right outside the door

MarkH67

517 posts

Ultimate Geek

#1840577 7-Aug-2017 14:17

PhantomNVD: Re: “No GPS for New Zealand currently for original AV Unit.“

Surely the original (2011) NZ new ones came with NZ maps and could be clones to be installed in the memory slot for the English unit?

However, I think I read somewhere in this very thread that the NZ maps haven’t been updated and someone saw themselves “wacking across paddocks” when driving down the Waikato Expressway, so they’d only be useful inner city where there haven’t been as much change in the last 5 years...

I'll just go with the cheapest option - a suction cup for my RAM mount so I can attach my smart phone to my windscreen.

I use a free navigation app that works with free open source maps which I downloaded at home through the WiFi and update every month again through WiFi. I don't need to use data or to even have a cellular connection for it to work. I did a motorcycle trip from home to bluff and back (over 2 weeks) and the phone did a great job of navigating me to where I needed to go. My dash and centre console being in English is enough for me.

RUKI

1400 posts

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#1840737 7-Aug-2017 19:15

PhantomNVD: ......

Surely the original (2011) NZ new ones came with NZ maps and could be clones to be installed in the memory slot for the English unit? ...

The day you make that happen - NZ dealers would be your best friends.....Not there yet. Dealers are paying a fortune to the officials for the original SD card when AV unit comes from Japan without it.

I have sent tech info for Leaf AV unit to people who are keen to have a look and make decision of whether it worth the efforts. NZ Map is not a priority for them obviously but mapping, language and FM is.

If BGA means anything to you folks then you would realize the complexity involved in that en-devour..

AV unit is on the CAN-BUS which adds more complexity as AV unit is integrated into the powertrain. Meaning AV is not standalone. You change it for any aftermarket one - and you loose a lot of functionality.

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frednz

1467 posts

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#1840766 7-Aug-2017 19:46

dejadeadnz:

Linuxluver:

What makes it possible - at least for the Nissan LEAF - is that mechanically it's probably one of the most reliable cars ever built.

Absolutely, for a normal petrol car with thousands of moving parts and an engine containing thousands of explosions per minute......you need service backup.

I know it's hard to go from one paradigm to another.......old assumptions that don't apply still work strongly on the mind.

I'm just going to respond to the above but there's a certain theme in this kind of reply that's quite tiresome. Breathless excitement of owners defending their new "toys" aside, every sane person looking at this thread knows that EVs are the future. In some cases (like the Tesla 3), they are already amazing. But no amount of excitement, self-anointed smugness or even moral superiority for merely choosing one form of transportation over another will help someone finding themselves stuck with with an inoperable heap with no one to sue if Hick Random EV Importer Ltd with a capital of $100 goes under in the future. Look, on a theoretical level, it is highly likely that EV cars will be very reliable but taking me and my wife as an example, as people who prefer new cars or at least near-new, no such options are available or, if they are, it requires me to deal with some random no-name bunch and to take their word for it that their UI conversations and other works on the car are safe and reliable etc. And given the relatively low age of EVs and small sample sizes (and remembering all the history of how supposedly foolproof technologies in the car world have gone kaput), I am not prepared to uncritically accept the "EVs are more reliable. Guaranteed!" (I'm paraphrasing, obviously) line literally.

Sorry but I've got a serious day job to do and, in the case of my wife, she literally has lives to save daily. We haven't got the time to battle with a dealer nor do we wish to cope with the stress of not knowing whether the lot that sold us the car will be around to take any responsibility in a few years' time. And supposedly one branch of Nissan does servicing on the Leaf according to one EV owner? Are they going to keep doing it? What about if I move out of Auckland. I manage and handle commercial and contractual risks worth tens of millions daily -- I just can't look myself in the mirror and take what I advise people at work to do to be prudent etc seriously if I go around managing my own life like this. And we haven't even started on the admitted ease with it battery condition information etc can be fiddled with by dishonest sellers.

Until the manufacturers put their own networks and reputation fully on the line in NZ in relation to EVs, going into it is literally a leap of faith worth tens of thousands of dollars.

I sympathise with your position on this as for many years I have always bought NZ new vehicles.

You can buy a NZ-new pure electric 28 kWh Hyundai Ionic for about $60,000 and this has a range of about 200km. This vehicle has received very good reviews, but for this money, I would prefer to have a range of at least 300km.

Nevertheless, if you are satisfied with a range of 200km, this seems to be the cheapest NZ-new pure electric car available at the moment. But it's a lot of money to pay to get started with EVs and this is why most people are buying second-hand imported vehicles. When you can buy a nice little NZ-new EV for around $30,000, then the EV market will really take off.

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