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109 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1901435 15-Nov-2017 20:17
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frednz:

 

Yes, it's great for you (and the environment) if you can save $3500 a year in petrol, but I would offset against this the cost of electricity in charging your EV to go an equivalent distance. What do you think the cost of this electricity would be for you?

 

I think the depreciation of an EV is a very large factor to consider because the price of a NZ-new EV starts at around $60,000, and you can pay $40,000 for a second-hand Nissan Leaf that's been imported from the UK. With no NZ Govt subsidies on the purchase of new vehicles, they are just too expensive when compared with equivalent ICE models, even considering the savings you mention.

 

As for replacing your battery, I would rather try to trade-in your existing EV for a higher range model if that is possible. I think you will experience less depreciation that way.

 

 

In theory it will cost a few hundred a year to charge an EV, but in practice, due to special EV rates for electricity in the Wellington Region, my entire power bill is decreasing.  So I'll be saving 20-30$ a month in electricity and $3500 a year in petrol.  Its strange but true. All electricity for me between 9pm and 7am is dirt cheap, washer, dryer, dishwasher, hot water heater etc.

 

Depreciation of vehicles is another issue, and worth considering.  Operating an EV is cheaper than a petrol vehicle, even if you have terrible luck and replace the entire battery every five years.  Is this offset by greater vehicle depreciation?

 

The answer to that is probably not, since a used EV with a new battery should be worth a fair bit of money (still more than a petrol car with same odometer, as it will be in better shape and much better value). In practice, who knows?  We haven't got there yet.  As a business you can write-off depreciation, but even as an individual it makes financial sense if you can afford the capital outlay because of the lower running costs.

 

I'm betting owning petrol cars is going to get more expensive in the future, and EV's are going to be cheaper.  Its a guess, but in my vision of the future, there will be both carrots and sticks used by the government to increase EV ownership and I want to be on the smart side of that. 

 

As for the prices of a new EV or a used LEAF, I just bought a ex-jap 2016 LEAF for 27k, not 40k.  You would have to be hellbent on throwing money away to buy a 40k LEAF!  New EV's are definitely expensive, but remember to add 15k to the price of the equivalent petrol car, thats at least what you'll spend in 4 years fuelling and servicing it.  

 

Buying an EV is like buying a really nice petrol car and all your petrol for the next few years, all at once.  Yes it costs more upfront, but you save a bundle in the long run.  Because of cheap Japanese imports that have the Japanese government subsidies rolled into their price already, we get a fantastic deal here in NZ.  

 

Note: You can now get breakdown insurance on EV's in NZ, cost about $350 per year and covers the battery.  That should take some of the 'used car' anxiety out of it for some people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


24 posts

Geek
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  Reply # 1901437 15-Nov-2017 20:21
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PhantomNVD: For the 20,000km/y we do, @$3/100kms (if charged at home every time) that’s still a measly $600/year in electricity so no big deal there either?

Since Counties Power (and Vector) have so many free charging stations available, someone with the 20mins/day to kill while they charge could easily cut that in 1/2 or even 1/4 the cost too... for now anyway.

 

 

 

The $3/100km appears a bit off to me. I'm paying about 15ct/kW to charge on night tariff at home. Living in Northland I'm driving more highways kms than in the city or town and no free charging. My average is about 10kW for 60 Km. So about $1,50/60kms which roughly translates to $2,50/100kms. Maybe you are charging on day tariff and drive more economical city kms?

 

Anyway your point is still valid, it saves a lot of money which you can pay towards a new or refurbished battery later on.


 
 
 
 


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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1901438 15-Nov-2017 20:26
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Yes, $3/100kms is the media “max” charge rate estimate. I actually pay around 18c/KW and get 6.6kms/kw on the leaf dash average... just can’t be asked to do the math on such a minuscule difference 🤫

IcI

595 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1901450 15-Nov-2017 20:41
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frednz: ... If this vehicle had a range of at least 200km, ...

 

My 12 bar 24Kw Leaf has a max range of 150kms. With your expectations, you are going to wait a long while to buy an EV. In the meantime, I am going to enjoy $0 petrol costs and 'zero emission' driving.




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Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1901472 15-Nov-2017 21:24
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happyfunball:

 

 

 

Now let me climb on the pulpit: NZ has a distorted market due to a lack of emissions testing, there is no penalty here to polluting as much as you like.  Having a fuel 'efficient' car consists of saving money at the pump, not limiting toxic gas emissions or even CO2.  In many markets older cars become more expensive as the odometer advances, this is because older engines emit more than when they were new.  In Canada, where I'm familiar with the emissions testing, its quite stressful for owners of older vehicles because they can be suddenly saddled with up to $1500 in fines/repairs just for failing an emissions test.   California is similar, you can drive older (called "affordable" in NZ) cars but you'll pay for the privilege.

 

 

This comes up over and over. When people look at "equivalent" they tend to forget the higher cost of fuel and servicing in an ICE....and give no weight at all to emissions. 

There absolutely must be a carbon tax on fossil fuels...and use the money to rebate part of the purchase of EVs - light or heavy.  At the same time make selling of fossil fuel vehicles after 2030 illegal without a special case exemption. 

That will get the prices lined up fairly quickly. 

We should also look at supporting conversions. There are a lot of great cars and trucks that could be converted over instead of just wrecked. This is something NZ could lead the world in. But usually avoid any chance to do that as the multi-nationals who own most of the economy don't like anything they don't control. This is the cost of foreign ownership. You lose control and opportunities can't be followed up by anyone but government...and the ideology says government shouldn't do it. 

Nice, tightly-wrapped rort. 

All most of our business people know how to do is Google a thing and then import it. 
 





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


681 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1902526 16-Nov-2017 08:59
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IcI:

 

frednz: ... If this vehicle had a range of at least 200km, ...

 

My 12 bar 24Kw Leaf has a max range of 150kms. With your expectations, you are going to wait a long while to buy an EV. In the meantime, I am going to enjoy $0 petrol costs and 'zero emission' driving.

 

 

Well, the new Nissan Leaf has a range of 150 miles (242 km), so this will be here before too long. Now, I wonder whether the battery used in the new Nissan Leaf will be able to be purchased in NZ and fitted to earlier versions of the Leaf?

 

There are a few other EVs that have a range of at least 200km that I can buy now, such as the Hyundai Ionic, the BMWi3, the Renault Zoe and soon the Volkswagen e-Golf. So, I don't think my expectations are too high, but my bank balance certainly needs to be on the high side to get into the 200km EV league!


k14

575 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1902529 16-Nov-2017 09:08
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frednz:

 

 

 

Well, the new Nissan Leaf has a range of 150 miles (242 km), so this will be here before too long. Now, I wonder whether the battery used in the new Nissan Leaf will be able to be purchased in NZ and fitted to earlier versions of the Leaf?

 

There are a few other EVs that have a range of at least 200km that I can buy now, such as the Hyundai Ionic, the BMWi3, the Renault Zoe and soon the Volkswagen e-Golf. So, I don't think my expectations are too high, but my bank balance certainly needs to be on the high side to get into the 200km EV league!

 

 

I'd say the chances of that are zero. The whole car was redesigned so its very unlikely they would have made the battery the same. I think I read somewhere (and I can't remember where) that even the 30kWh battery of a 2015/16 LEAF is not able to be fitted to a 24kWh LEAF. It is exactly the same chassis so go figure.

 

Personally I don't think replacing a battery on a LEAF with a brand new genuine Nissan one will ever be economic. Until there are enough people wanting replacement batteries that a 3rd party company works out how to make one and deliver it for say $6k NZD people will be stuck with their existing batteries.


681 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1902534 16-Nov-2017 09:13
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happyfunball:

 

 

 

As for the prices of a new EV or a used LEAF, I just bought a ex-jap 2016 LEAF for 27k, not 40k.  You would have to be hellbent on throwing money away to buy a 40k LEAF!  New EV's are definitely expensive, but remember to add 15k to the price of the equivalent petrol car, thats at least what you'll spend in 4 years fuelling and servicing it.  

 

 

 

 

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/nissan/auction-1463075912.htm

 

If you look at the above advertisement you'll see that the price of this Nissan Leaf is $43,995. It's a Nissan Leaf Tekna with a claimed range of 200km.

 

I would far rather pay the extra to get the UK Tekna Leaf rather than a Japanese Leaf. From what I've heard, the UK Tekna is far superior in many ways to the Japanese versions, so buyers need to research this point.

 

Incidentally, how do you arrive at 15k for fuelling and servicing a petrol car over 4 years?


681 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1902563 16-Nov-2017 09:22
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k14:

 

frednz:

 

 

 

Well, the new Nissan Leaf has a range of 150 miles (242 km), so this will be here before too long. Now, I wonder whether the battery used in the new Nissan Leaf will be able to be purchased in NZ and fitted to earlier versions of the Leaf?

 

There are a few other EVs that have a range of at least 200km that I can buy now, such as the Hyundai Ionic, the BMWi3, the Renault Zoe and soon the Volkswagen e-Golf. So, I don't think my expectations are too high, but my bank balance certainly needs to be on the high side to get into the 200km EV league!

 

 

I'd say the chances of that are zero. The whole car was redesigned so its very unlikely they would have made the battery the same. I think I read somewhere (and I can't remember where) that even the 30kWh battery of a 2015/16 LEAF is not able to be fitted to a 24kWh LEAF. It is exactly the same chassis so go figure.

 

Personally I don't think replacing a battery on a LEAF with a brand new genuine Nissan one will ever be economic. Until there are enough people wanting replacement batteries that a 3rd party company works out how to make one and deliver it for say $6k NZD people will be stuck with their existing batteries.

 

 

Well, that's what I've been wondering, is it really economic to replace a Nissan Leaf battery if you can't buy the newest Leaf battery that gives the greatest range? I think that with the BMW i3, the old models can take the latest i3 batteries?

 

Because EV range is a very important consideration for many buyers, I wouldn't want to upgrade the battery unless it's to the very latest battery available. When you spend money upgrading a car, you have to be very careful that you will recover this money on resale, particularly when technology is moving really fast, as it is with EVs.


8 posts

Wannabe Geek
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  Reply # 1902665 16-Nov-2017 11:21
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frednz:

 

 

 

 

 

If you look at the above advertisement you'll see that the price of this Nissan Leaf is $43,995. It's a Nissan Leaf Tekna with a claimed range of 200km.

 

I would far rather pay the extra to get the UK Tekna Leaf rather than a Japanese Leaf. From what I've heard, the UK Tekna is far superior in many ways to the Japanese versions, so buyers need to research this point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The "research" I did before buying was all online stuff. It led me to believe that, as long as you weren't too bothered by Japanese instructions for many of the bells and whistles, and your seller included an English language owner's manual (220 comprehensive pages provided by Japanese Solutions Ltd of Penrose, Auckland), there was little to choose between the UK and JDM models ... except in price, which may or may not be important depending on your circumstances.

 

I went through Volt Vehicles in Northcote, told David Lees exactly what we wanted (model, age, colour, mileage, price). He bought at an auction house in Japan, imported the vehicle, and handled all the NZ compliance and on-road costs. The total cost, including $500 for an extra, NZ-standard charging cable, was $25,700.

 

The car was delivered looking (and smelling!) just like new -- a 2016 30kWh X that had done 14,000 km. For me, the price alone made this preferable to spending circa $44,000 for a superior (?) UK Leaf.


109 posts

Master Geek
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  Reply # 1902692 16-Nov-2017 12:33
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frednz:

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/nissan/auction-1463075912.htm


If you look at the above advertisement you'll see that the price of this Nissan Leaf is $43,995. It's a Nissan Leaf Tekna with a claimed range of 200km.


I would far rather pay the extra to get the UK Tekna Leaf rather than a Japanese Leaf. From what I've heard, the UK Tekna is far superior in many ways to the Japanese versions, so buyers need to research this point.


Incidentally, how do you arrive at 15k for fuelling and servicing a petrol car over 4 years?



IMO Japanese Leafs are slightly superior to the UK ones because they use more aluminium which costs more to produce but lowers the weight of the vehicle (increasing range). Steel is cheaper and heavier. The BMW i3 uses aluminium and carbon fibre for this reason too but carbon fiber is even better and more expensive than steel. The advantage of the UK leaf is it can charge at 30 amps AC instead of 18, but I don’t really value that. If I want a fast charge I’ll use DC. Japanese S models can also be fully converted to English with NZ maps, which the UK version cannot.

I was spending 3500 a year on petrol, that’s where the 15k came from.

427 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1902729 16-Nov-2017 13:59
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frednz:

 

 

 

Now, in the above "emergency" example, if you have only a quarter of a tank of petrol in your ICE vehicle, you are likely to have a range of at least 150 km, which isn't too bad. But, if your 80km range Nissan Leaf only has one-quarter if its charge left, then you are in a lot worse situation because you only have 20km of range left.

 

 

 

 

 

This range analogy where a portion of a tank of gas is compared to the same portion of battery charge in an EV, while common and appears to fair by comparing apples to apples, is disingenuous because it fails to consider the fundament differences and habits in refuelling ICE and EV's.

 

Because an EV battery is replenished daily and at home (not once a week at a gas stations), in an emergency at home it is more likely to be near 100% charged than 25% charged.

 

An ICE has to make a special and planned detour to a fuel station and a sales transaction has to occur in order to replenish the fuel tank. This is inconvenient and drivers don't want to do it every day which is one reason why ICE vehicles have big fuel tanks.

 

An EV on the other hand is 'magically' refuelled to approx.130 km of range over night by electron pixies while it is parked at your house.

 

An EV may have 1/4 of the range of a fully fuelled ICE vehicle but if you think about it and compare kms of range to kms of range, how often would you take your ICE vehicle to a petrol station if every morning you woke up and found that magical petrol pixies had filled the gas tank back to 1/4 or 130km range? Probably only when going on a road trip or holiday which would be 2 or 4 times a year for me.

 

If you further consider that the fuel cost of letting the pixies refuel for you at home was 75% cheaper than a petrol station and you don't have to muck about with cash/credit cards you'd probably make an extra effort to refuel at home and avoid gas stations.


19 posts

Geek
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  Reply # 1902733 16-Nov-2017 14:10
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tripper1000:

 

This range analogy where a portion of a tank of gas is compared to the same portion of battery charge in an EV, while common and appears to fair by comparing apples to apples, is disingenuous because it fails to consider the fundament differences and habits in refuelling ICE and EV's.

 

Because an EV battery is replenished daily and at home (not once a week at a gas stations), in an emergency at home it is more likely to be near 100% charged than 25% charged.

 

An ICE has to make a special and planned detour to a fuel station and a sales transaction has to occur in order to replenish the fuel tank. This is inconvenient and drivers don't want to do it every day which is one reason why ICE vehicles have big fuel tanks.

 

An EV on the other hand is 'magically' refuelled to approx.130 km of range over night by electron pixies while it is parked at your house.

 

An EV may have 1/4 of the range of a fully fuelled ICE vehicle but if you think about it and compare kms of range to kms of range, how often would you take your ICE vehicle to a petrol station if every morning you woke up and found that magical petrol pixies had filled the gas tank back to 1/4 or 130km range? Probably only when going on a road trip or holiday which would be 2 or 4 times a year for me.

 

If you further consider that the fuel cost of letting the pixies refuel for you at home was 75% cheaper than a petrol station and you don't have to muck about with cash/credit cards you'd probably make an extra effort to refuel at home and avoid gas stations.

 

 

I read, but don't often say much here.  But, I've been living that EV dream for 2 months now and you could not have described my experience better.  Our car makes us smile every day.

 

We paid a little less than $20k for a 3 year old Japanese Nissan Leaf S.  It had done 600km and was really like new.  We have an all-English dash and head-unit with Android Auto (NZ maps, Spotify, Bluetooth, AM/FM radio, etc).  So good.

 

Life's too short to spend all that time at petrol stations. 


28 posts

Geek
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  Reply # 1902795 16-Nov-2017 16:14
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I finally got a ODBII dongle and went to test drive a 2016 Japanese S model today. I must say the LeafSpy app is a bit daunting at first... I will work on reading the 42 page help guide... In the meantime any input I can get on deciphering the attached screen shot would be very appreciated... Anything to watch out for with this car? Also: is there a way to tell if this car is 24 or 30Kw? The seller was not sure and it was not charged to 100% as you can see...

 

Click to see full size

 

Click to see full size


4619 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 1902800 16-Nov-2017 16:28
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Multiply the voltage (376.38v) x the Ah (60.99) = 23kWh, so 24kWh model.


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