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SaltyNZ
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  #2056739 15-Jul-2018 23:00
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Aredwood:

 

You are assuming that people will still buy new ICE vehicles, despite them now costing more.

 

 

They would cost very slightly more, versus a decent reduction in price of an EV. The whole point being to make the EV seem more attractive. And as I said, if and when it gets to the point that it becomes self-sustaining, then we can wind down the subsidies.

 

 

 

Aredwood:

 

As for the 7L V10 Chevy truck? Again, where is the EV version? And yes, there are use cases where such a vehicle is the best vehicle for the job. (mainly towing 3.5 ton trailers).

 

 

Here?





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GV27
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  #2056758 16-Jul-2018 05:50
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SaltyNZ:

 

They would cost very slightly more, versus a decent reduction in price of an EV. The whole point being to make the EV seem more attractive. And as I said, if and when it gets to the point that it becomes self-sustaining, then we can wind down the subsidies.

 

 

EVs can and will get better no matter how much we throw at a subsidy. Are we not better off waiting until other markets/subsidies drive that instead of it being on us? Look at Nissan Leaf prices. 


 
 
 
 


SaltyNZ
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  #2056777 16-Jul-2018 07:11
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GV27:

 

EVs can and will get better no matter how much we throw at a subsidy. Are we not better off waiting until other markets/subsidies drive that instead of it being on us? Look at Nissan Leaf prices. 

 

 

 

 

You mean the prices of the second-hand Japanese imports? Like all cars, they are cheaper if you get an older one but the supply is limited so I don't think there's a whole lot of scope expand the volume there. If you mean brand new they are 3.1M Yen in Japan, which as a direct conversion to NZD is $41,000 but I wouldn't expect it to actually be on sale for as low as that. Nissan's NZ front page shows the Leaf but the 'Learn More' isn't actually clickable. By comparison, brand new Corollas start at about $27,000. And circling back to the second-hand Leafs, 30kWh 2016 Leafs are still going for $29,000-$32,000.

 

Now, I'm sure you've heard of the potential problems with the batteries in those. I bought mine about a month before the story broke, and there's a good reason why relying on second-hand imports for everything isn't a great long-term strategy. Nissan NZ doesn't want to know you. If it turns out that there is indeed a physical issue with the batteries in addition to required tweaks to the computer then we are all pretty much stuck with it unless the government steps in again to force Nissan NZ to do something. If a car has a problem, then the CGA has your back and the dealer will sort it. If a whole model of car has a problem, then your independent dealer is going to go broke fixing everyone's cars.





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kingdragonfly
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  #2056808 16-Jul-2018 08:35
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If anyone is looking for a fun project job, a Morris Minor Traveller is for sale Tuesday.

I thought about it myself, but lack of safety features, airbags, crumple zones, put me off..

https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1686957236

This company sells Morris Minor EV kits


GV27
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  #2056838 16-Jul-2018 09:23
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SaltyNZ:

 

GV27:

 

EVs can and will get better no matter how much we throw at a subsidy. Are we not better off waiting until other markets/subsidies drive that instead of it being on us? Look at Nissan Leaf prices. 

 

 

You mean the prices of the second-hand Japanese imports? Like all cars, they are cheaper if you get an older one but the supply is limited so I don't think there's a whole lot of scope expand the volume there. If you mean brand new they are 3.1M Yen in Japan, which as a direct conversion to NZD is $41,000 but I wouldn't expect it to actually be on sale for as low as that. Nissan's NZ front page shows the Leaf but the 'Learn More' isn't actually clickable. By comparison, brand new Corollas start at about $27,000. And circling back to the second-hand Leafs, 30kWh 2016 Leafs are still going for $29,000-$32,000.

 

Now, I'm sure you've heard of the potential problems with the batteries in those. I bought mine about a month before the story broke, and there's a good reason why relying on second-hand imports for everything isn't a great long-term strategy. Nissan NZ doesn't want to know you. If it turns out that there is indeed a physical issue with the batteries in addition to required tweaks to the computer then we are all pretty much stuck with it unless the government steps in again to force Nissan NZ to do something. If a car has a problem, then the CGA has your back and the dealer will sort it. If a whole model of car has a problem, then your independent dealer is going to go broke fixing everyone's cars.

 

That's just the Nissan Leaf? And there are plenty of other manufacturers bringing in EVs - Hyundai, VW, Jaguar, BMW etc. That's happening without subsidies and with as much manufacturer support as you're likely to get in NZ. An EV Swift is only about three years away; the current entry-level Swift is $21K. 

 

ICEs have a hundred years of development behind them; it didn't stop the R56 Cooper from having a crappy chain system or Toyota floormats causing sudden acceleration or those Porsches catching fire. The Nissan Leafs were Generation One of the first ever really mass-produced and globally sold EVs. I wouldn't say problems are to be expected but extrapolating the level of support available for grey-market Leafs now across the entire EV market forever doesn't seem that relevant given how fast the market and underlying tech is changing. 

 

 

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2056844 16-Jul-2018 09:33
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GV27:

 

 

 

ICEs have a hundred years of development behind them; it didn't stop the R56 Cooper from having a crappy chain system or Toyota floormats causing sudden acceleration or those Porsches catching fire. The Nissan Leafs were Generation One of the first ever really mass-produced and globally sold EVs. I wouldn't say problems are to be expected but extrapolating the level of support available for grey-market Leafs now across the entire EV market forever doesn't seem that relevant given how fast the market and underlying tech is changing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And given that an EV has what about 20 moving parts (?) ironing out any issue I would feel would be quite quick. In fact ICE have got more and more complicated (and often more costly to repair). Possible that manufacturers may ramp up warranties, with comparatively little to go wrong, would be a nice incentive to add to no $2-50 petrol and low ongoing running costs


SaltyNZ
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  #2056866 16-Jul-2018 10:02
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GV27:

 

ICEs have a hundred years of development behind them; it didn't stop the R56 Cooper from having a crappy chain system or Toyota floormats causing sudden acceleration or those Porsches catching fire. The Nissan Leafs were Generation One of the first ever really mass-produced and globally sold EVs. I wouldn't say problems are to be expected but extrapolating the level of support available for grey-market Leafs now across the entire EV market forever doesn't seem that relevant given how fast the market and underlying tech is changing. 

 

 

 

 

The Leafs with the battery issue in question are not the Generation One cars. They are the one that was only replaced this year with the 40kWh model.

 

My point was that you seemed to pointing at Nissan Leafs as an example of why subsidies are not necessary to keep prices low. My response to that is that they are only that cheap because they are grey market, and buyers have little practical recourse if non-safety-critical issues are found in a particular model, so you can't simply hand-wave prices away using second-hand imports as an example.Some people - like me - believe in them strongly enough to take the risk, but it's certainly not something everyone would be comfortable with.

 

Also, your other examples of VW, BMW and Porsche are hardly supermarket cars even in the ICE world.





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plod
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  #2056911 16-Jul-2018 10:27
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To increase the NZ new second hand market, government department should maybe consider EV for their fleets where suitable. This should bring a lot of ex lease cars on to the market.
On a side note EV drivers are starting to sound like vegans/Apple fanboys. My way or the highway.

SaltyNZ
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  #2056949 16-Jul-2018 10:55
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plod: My way or the highway.

 

No, that's "My way and the highway." ;-)





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GV27
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  #2056988 16-Jul-2018 11:34
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SaltyNZ:

 

GV27:

 

ICEs have a hundred years of development behind them; it didn't stop the R56 Cooper from having a crappy chain system or Toyota floormats causing sudden acceleration or those Porsches catching fire. The Nissan Leafs were Generation One of the first ever really mass-produced and globally sold EVs. I wouldn't say problems are to be expected but extrapolating the level of support available for grey-market Leafs now across the entire EV market forever doesn't seem that relevant given how fast the market and underlying tech is changing. 

 

 

The Leafs with the battery issue in question are not the Generation One cars. They are the one that was only replaced this year with the 40kWh model.

 

My point was that you seemed to pointing at Nissan Leafs as an example of why subsidies are not necessary to keep prices low. My response to that is that they are only that cheap because they are grey market, and buyers have little practical recourse if non-safety-critical issues are found in a particular model, so you can't simply hand-wave prices away using second-hand imports as an example.Some people - like me - believe in them strongly enough to take the risk, but it's certainly not something everyone would be comfortable with.

 

Also, your other examples of VW, BMW and Porsche are hardly supermarket cars even in the ICE world.

 

 

Without getting into the semantics of a new generation Leaf vs. a refreshed Leaf, as the technology improves, there's likely to be fewer of these issues and there won't be the same level of risk involved in buying an EV vs. an ICE.


Geektastic
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  #2057484 16-Jul-2018 23:30
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There's an interesting article on electric cars in today's UK Telegraph. I noted this from the text

 

 

 

"The Government’s “plug-in grant” will pay for 35pc of the price of most ultra-low emission vehicles, up to £4,500, depending on the car. The grant is guaranteed until 2020, but the rates are up for review in October.

 

There are also various tax benefits: zero-emission vehicles valued at less than £40,000 are exempt from road tax, while electricity (unlike petrol) incurs no fuel duty and just 5pc VAT."

 

 

 

This may explain the greater uptake..!






wellygary
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  #2057572 17-Jul-2018 09:05
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plod: To increase the NZ new second hand market, government department should maybe consider EV for their fleets where suitable. This should bring a lot of ex lease cars on to the market.

 

The problem is until the price difference is lower, it opens the Government up to claims of and "extravagant public service" "swanning around in electric cars" "while we have to pay for them"

 

I can see the talk back lines getting jammed as soon as it was announced

 

 


Teeps
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  #2057581 17-Jul-2018 09:30
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wellygary:

 

plod: To increase the NZ new second hand market, government department should maybe consider EV for their fleets where suitable. This should bring a lot of ex lease cars on to the market.

 

The problem is until the price difference is lower, it opens the Government up to claims of and "extravagant public service" "swanning around in electric cars" "while we have to pay for them"

 

I can see the talk back lines getting jammed as soon as it was announced

 

 

 

 

If handled properly though it could also be great awareness to the general public as to the actual cost of ownership of an EV over time as they cost a lot less to run and maintain. 


MikeAqua
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  #2057582 17-Jul-2018 09:30
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wellygary:

 

The problem is until the price difference is lower, it opens the Government up to claims of and "extravagant public service" "swanning around in electric cars" "while we have to pay for them"

 

I can see the talk back lines getting jammed as soon as it was announced

 

 

From an operational perspective, it may be cheaper for the govt to use ICEVs and offset emissions.  That doesn't mean they shouldn't have EV fleets, but it does mean EVs probably aren't the cost efficient option.

 

A switch to EVs would require a significant investment in charging infrastructure for some agencies.  If you go along to a DHB you will see a pool of dozens of cars - typically parked in an open car park.  Swap those vehicles to EVs and you need charging points for perhaps 50% of those cars.  That's a significant capital investment.

 

You also introduce operational headaches around charging.  With an ICEV you have booked was left low on fuel by the last user, it's a minor inconvenience to fill it up.  With an EV it's a major delay.

 

EVs won't be suitable for all govt vehicles - for example DoC. MPI and councils have 4WD vehicles for going back country (no chargers there).

 

Some DHBs have wide rural catchments that require staff to cover long distances - of those staff stop to charge you're still paying them.  Fuel is cheaper than wages.

 

 





Mike


plod
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  #2057587 17-Jul-2018 09:35
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wellygary:

plod: To increase the NZ new second hand market, government department should maybe consider EV for their fleets where suitable. This should bring a lot of ex lease cars on to the market.


The problem is until the price difference is lower, it opens the Government up to claims of and "extravagant public service" "swanning around in electric cars" "while we have to pay for them"


I can see the talk back lines getting jammed as soon as it was announced


 

westpac have started changing their fleet over to a mix of EV and hybrid so there is a start in the private sector

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