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5385 posts

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  # 2065029 30-Jul-2018 15:50
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afe66:

 

Can we go back to talking about EV please...

 

 

Well I did start out that way.  If they can be built lighter, they will go further on the same battery.  Further is better.

 

There are limits to how light batteries can get (enthalpy density).





Mike

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  # 2065120 30-Jul-2018 17:25
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Not everyone would have a garage esp inner suburbs / townhouses / apartments.  Tourists and business travellers, students owning cars and living in student on campus.  Also if the majority are to use EV cars, the holiday season, would there be enough chargers?  Given how much battery replacements are, and not everyone can purchase new or recent new EV cars, how much a risk is it for someone to purchase a second hand 8yr old EV car and for those new purchasers what would happen when the battery is due for replacement.  


 
 
 
 


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  # 2065381 31-Jul-2018 07:23
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MikeAqua:

 

Firstly, design to avoid a crash is not design to witstand a crash - two different things.

 

Secondly, for a relevant comparison you need to compare a light vehicle to light plane.  The comparator for a family car is not a Dream-liner, it's a little Cessna.

 

Thirdly, for something built to survive a crash, aircraft do seem to have a propensity to scatter themselves over quite a wide area on impact ... there often aren't survivors.

 

 

OK. All aircraft have seatbelts. They're there to protect occupants in a crash, not to avoid a crash. You could also consider parachute systems (standard on several light aircraft models (e.g. Cirrus) which turn a likely-fatal crash into a destroy-the-aircraft-but-protect-the-passengers event.

 

Light aircraft *don't* usually crash in a heap killing all on board. I did sone research on this several years ago; the stats are that travelling in a light aircraft is about as dangerous as driving at night in bad weather. You're a bit more likely to be killed, and a bit less likely to be injured. Much more common is a forced landing of some kind which is NOT reported in the media... a controlled landing is usually survivable, depending on terrain and visibility. As a data point, in my light aviation experience, I've done two forced landings (no injuries, no damage, no media reporting) and and had no fatal crashes.

 

 


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  # 2065439 31-Jul-2018 09:44
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rayonline:

 

Not everyone would have a garage esp inner suburbs / townhouses / apartments.  Tourists and business travellers, students owning cars and living in student on campus.  Also if the majority are to use EV cars, the holiday season, would there be enough chargers?  Given how much battery replacements are, and not everyone can purchase new or recent new EV cars, how much a risk is it for someone to purchase a second hand 8yr old EV car and for those new purchasers what would happen when the battery is due for replacement.  

 

 

If people are using an EV for a short commute or urban journeys, then they will find opportunities to charge as they are out and about.  If using one for a longer commute (a friend of mine does about 80km/day), you need to be more organised and charge at home/work (she charges at the rate payers expense at her work).

 

Tourists mostly rent vehicles.  Rentals tend to be ICEVs (cheaper to buy, less to explain to customers, faster turn around between hires).

 

 





Mike

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  # 2065490 31-Jul-2018 10:27
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I think they are good for those people who already purchases new or quite new petrol cars now they can get EV cars.  Not so good for those who generally buy 8+ year old used cars.  

 

Tourists well yes, needs to be a while before the technology catches on, esp when governments are pushing the idea. 

 

 

 

Home charging yes.  When people drive away on holidays / school breaks.  Sitting at a charging station for 30mins - imagine the queues.  Wellington to Auckland might be $120-150 in petrol.  Using a charging station, based on Z Energy's webpage that amounts to about $55.  So the difference isn't that substantial.  


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  # 2065545 31-Jul-2018 10:57
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rayonline:

 

I think they are good for those people who already purchases new or quite new petrol cars now they can get EV cars.  Not so good for those who generally buy 8+ year old used cars.  

 

 

 

 

Well, that was us: the car I replaced with a Leaf this year (a Swift) was 8 years old / 68,000km on it when I bought it, and I had it for another 10 years and 260,000km. So actually the Leaf is costing me about $200/mth more than I used to pay for commuting alone because I have to pay off the car loan. But assuming I keep it for a similar length of time, and even allowing for a battery replacement, it will still save me money in the long run. More so because now the Leaf is our family car so we drive it instead of the Pajero on the weekends. Taking that into account as well makes it much closer to still being break-even during the loan repayment phase.





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Circumspice
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  # 2065556 31-Jul-2018 11:15
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How much are you estimating for battery replacement @saltynz?


 
 
 
 


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  # 2065587 31-Jul-2018 12:35
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I don't really know yet, but even if it's as high as $10K (and I hope it's not!) that's still on par with annual maintenance for a geriatric lawnmower, given that it's probably a once-every-5 years proposition.





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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  # 2065654 31-Jul-2018 13:29
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I heard the batteries last 10yrs.  

 

 

 

A 8yr old Japanese ICEV import generally nothing specific is around $8k car like from Turners, what we have bought over time.  That's cheaper than a EV.  

 

 

 

I did some quick figures: 

 

EV cost maybe $500 less PA due to less maintenance. 

 

EV also saves $3k PA re: petrol if can they can charge at home for the average motorist.  (if one was relying on charging stations only half is saved).   

 

Over 10yrs this is $35k in savings.  

 

New battery $10k, savings is now $25k or $2.5k PA.  

 

 

 

I guess one could argue, many don't do all the maintenance with a ICE vehicle, so the difference between a ICE/EV isn't so great, so reduce savings by $300/yr.  A used ICE car the battery might not last as long so maybe reduce savings by 1/3.  Now the savings becomes around $1,500 PA.  


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  # 2065656 31-Jul-2018 13:34
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rayonline: I think they are good for those people who already purchases new or quite new petrol cars now they can get EV cars.  Not so good for those who generally buy 8+ year old used cars.  

 

Tourists well yes, needs to be a while before the technology catches on, esp when governments are pushing the idea. 

 

Home charging yes.  When people drive away on holidays / school breaks.  Sitting at a charging station for 30mins - imagine the queues.  Wellington to Auckland might be $120-150 in petrol.  Using a charging station, based on Z Energy's webpage that amounts to about $55.  So the difference isn't that substantial.  

 

Hi Ray, those are typical sentiments of someone projecting ICE operational techniques onto EV. When you start driving EV you start treating your car more like your phone - you plug it in at home every night and you try to avoid needing to charge it when out and about. You buy one that has sufficient battery to last your needs for the whole day not for 1/2 the day.

 

1) My EV was 5 years old with a 92% battery when I bought it, so at 8 years old it will most likely be perfectly viable for someone who generally buys 8+ year old cars. Battery performance will likely continue to get better as technology slowly improves.

 

2) Did you know the petrol was once only available from the Chemist, but demand changed that. You can draw parallels between where EV charging is currently and where internet was 5 - 15 years ago. 5 years ago, fibre was really hard to get in apartments and 15 years ago WiFi wasn't available at every McDonalds. People now expect fibre in rented accommodation, and WiFi at malls and hotels. Once everyone expects EV charging at rental accommodation and at malls and hotels, it will happen. Just like Fibre/WiFi the prospect of customers taking their business elsewhere will drive it.

 

3)There are companies in the UK presently installing charge points in lampposts on demand for people with only on street parking.

 

4) You can not base projections on the future based on the performance of the present faster chargers or current tranche of EV's - the current EV's are the worse performing EV's that will ever be made (sorry owners, it's true and you know it!) EV's will only get better performance. Once you can drive the length of the NI on one charge, how intense will the demand be for public chargers be - probably relatively low. Similarly you can't predict the future based on current jams at chargers - the current chargers are similarly the slowest ones that will ever exist - faster ones are currently in production. Also BP in the UK and Shell in Europe have both bought the biggest EV charging networks in those regions respectively. As demand for petrol drops, and demand for charging increases, they will simply replace petrol pumps with chargers on their fore-courts. If every gas station had 20 fast chargers how bad would the queues be?

 

5) I have never heard of anyone paying $50 to charge an EV. That is like an ICE driver finding a place selling $3.50 petrol to refuel at. I generally pay ~$10-$15 at Charge-net chargers, and Zero $ at Vector and WEL chargers. In the UK you can use public fast chargers that bill to your home electricity account at the same/similar rates.


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  # 2065663 31-Jul-2018 13:46
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tripper1000:

 

rayonline: I think they are good for those people who already purchases new or quite new petrol cars now they can get EV cars.  Not so good for those who generally buy 8+ year old used cars.  

 

Tourists well yes, needs to be a while before the technology catches on, esp when governments are pushing the idea. 

 

Home charging yes.  When people drive away on holidays / school breaks.  Sitting at a charging station for 30mins - imagine the queues.  Wellington to Auckland might be $120-150 in petrol.  Using a charging station, based on Z Energy's webpage that amounts to about $55.  So the difference isn't that substantial.  

 

 

 

5) I have never heard of anyone paying $50 to charge an EV. That is like an ICE driver finding a place selling $3.50 petrol to refuel at. I generally pay ~$10-$15 at Charge-net chargers, and Zero $ at Vector and WEL chargers. In the UK you can use public fast chargers that bill to your home electricity account at the same/similar rates.

 

 

 

 

The $50 is multiple charging stops driving between Auckland and Wellington as of now.  Z Energy says $10 per the 120km for a Nissan Leaf.  The distance from Wellington to Auckland is about 5x this.  

 

 

 

This reporter said he paid $50 odd dollars. 

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/104073210/can-you-drive-an-ev-from-auckland-to-wellington-in-one-day-stressfree

 

 

 

Edit - I agree it will get better.  For us prob wait and see 5yrs down the road or probably nearer to 10yrs before the used EV cars becomes more affordable. Esp since we already have a petrol car, buying a EV car there is a purchase cost.  For us also we don't really have a city car and a holiday longer distance car.  


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  # 2065698 31-Jul-2018 14:55
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rayonline:

 

The $50 is multiple charging stops driving between Auckland and Wellington as of now.  Z Energy says $10 per the 120km for a Nissan Leaf.  The distance from Wellington to Auckland is about 5x this.  

 

 

 

 

Well, although I wouldn't willingly drive my 30kWh Leaf from Auckland to Wellington if I had a pressing schedule to keep, that's still a whole lot cheaper than petrol. My wife filled up the Pajero this morning since tonight's schedules involve a lot of musical chairs between parents and children. It cost $188.





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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  # 2065767 31-Jul-2018 16:32
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rayonline: The $50 is multiple charging stops driving between Auckland and Wellington as of now.  Z Energy says $10 per the 120km for a Nissan Leaf.  The distance from Wellington to Auckland is about 5x this.  

 

Edit - I agree it will get better.  For us prob wait and see 5yrs down the road or probably nearer to 10yrs before the used EV cars becomes more affordable. Esp since we already have a petrol car, buying a EV car there is a purchase cost.  For us also we don't really have a city car and a holiday longer distance car.  

 

Ah, Gotcha on the $50. You could recharge for free twice in the Wiakato on the WEL chargers so you could potentially knock $20 off that theoretical journey.

 

It would cost me at least $140 to drive my 2L ICE from ALK to WGN at $2.30/L. To be frank I would only drive my EV that distance if I was bored and wanted an adventure. In all honesty 24/30Kw Leafs are city cars and I would never tell a friend it was practical to commute between AKL and WGN in one. The once or twice a year trip to WGN isn't where an EV will pay it self back (hence media reviews like that are deceitful to the readers). It is the daily school, work, grocery and weekend sports trips where you replace your weekly $100+ petrol bill with a $15 power bill when an EV comes into its own.

 

A good time to buy an EV is when your ICE expires. There isn't much point selling a good ICE unless you are doing ~100km per day. It is also less of a leap if you are a 2 car family. Have 1x ICE and 1x EV to cover your bases. You'll find yourself using the EV as much as possible and the ICE will start to gather dust.


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  # 2065833 31-Jul-2018 18:58
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Having just last week driven to Auckland from Wellington and return I can provide the costs;

 

Left wellington with a full charge ( this from my home charging)

 

Stopped at Levin - $8.60

 

Stopped at Mangaweka - $13.90

 

Stopped at National Park - $14.63

 

Stopped at Te Kuiti - $ 10.29

 

Stopped at Te Kauwhata - free

 

Return

 

Left Auckland full charge from Greenland charger - free

 

Stopped at Te Kauwhata - free

 

Stopped at Te Kuiti - $11.84

 

Stopped at National Park -$14.00

 

Stopped at Waiouru $6.74

 

Stopped at Levin $9.40

 

 

 

Total for return trip $89.40

 

Comfortable, quiet and very enjoyable drive - travel time Wellington to Auckland inclusive of all stops 10 hours. Car is a Hyundai Ioniq EV. Travelled at legal speeds all the way i.e. mostly 100km/h on adaptive cruise control.

 

And the main benefit was that the car did not produce any CO2 emissions on the trip - which is the whole point of EVs - the fact that the cost was less than I would have paid in my old Volvo ICE is beside the point but I guess nice to know.


gzt

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  # 2065854 31-Jul-2018 19:59
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rayonline: Tourists well yes, needs to be a while before the technology catches on, esp when governments are pushing the idea

Nissan are building nv200 campers in Spain on the 40kw base.

An NZ company is planning to put 10 campers on the road. Not sure if it is the same vehicle.

Some tourists are specifically enviro tourists and won't mind planning or using a specific EV itinerary and booked campgrounds etc.

http://www.autocarstuff.co.nz/commercial-news-app/nissan-manufacturing-all-electric-e-nv200-camper-in-spain

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