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13 posts

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  Reply # 2087274 11-Sep-2018 08:36
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SaltyNZ:

Clawhammer:


Personally I believe that the only realistic answer to our upcoming supply difficulties is to have some of that new clear electric.



 


I think NZ will manage without it, but only because we lack any significant industry. Our sole smelter uses something like 15% of the national electrical output on its own. If and when that becomes too uneconomic to survive, that's the EV grid capacity problem solved overnight.


But for countries with significant heavy industry, I think you're absolutely right. New reactors, with new, passive-safe designs.



Yes, shutting that smelter down would release a lot of generation but would be a massive hit to our export figures. Also, this is generation in the South Island, most of the consumption is in the north island and the H.V. D.C . Link doesn't have an infinite capacity.

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  Reply # 2087384 11-Sep-2018 10:58
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Talk of shutting down the Aluminium smelter to use the electricity in EV is kind of perverse and defeatist. The world wide aluminium shortfall will be made up by a coal powered smelter else where, so it will be tantamount to running your EV on coal. It's the kind of micro-environmentalism that is  harming the world wide environment and stuffing up innovation.

 

Besides it will not immediately solve an electricity shortfall. Not only can the HVDC link not cope with extra capacity, but the AC link between Bluff and Benmore (where the HVDC link starts) can not carry the full output of Manapouri, because the network is designed to carry the full output only as far as the smelter in Bluff.

 

As per my earlier post, the pseudo-environmentalists would stop you from building the new transmission lines that would be required between Bluff and Haywoods (the length of the South Island).

 

We are blessed with loads of natural renewable resources in the this country. If you are serious about saving the planet and all that other environmental stuff (and if kiwi's were 1/2 as green as they pretend), we need to be building 10 Manapouri's and putting all the foreign coal powered smelters out of business.  

 

 


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  Reply # 2087426 11-Sep-2018 11:23
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Clawhammer:

 

....

 

It seems that those who answer "Increased Renewables" to any and every question about electricity supply seem to lack a realistic understanding of how an electricity supply system works.

 

 Using  EV batteries for storage to assist peak lopping is practical, but only when they are connected to the system. Far from generating any electricity they consume it in the losses associated with their chargers to charge their batteries and inverters to feed it back into the system. Generally the smaller the capacity, the less efficient they are.

 

Personally I believe that the only realistic answer to our upcoming supply difficulties is to have some of that new clear electric.

 

@Clawhammer it seems your understanding is of a foreign electricity system where there is a market for EV to grid technology because base-load is supplied by expensive to start/stop thermal power stations such as coal and nuclear, and where power stations are paid not to produce electricity and big consumers are paid to use electricity at low demand times.

 

EV to grid technology does not have a market in the New Zealand power-scape because we don't have the extreme range of off and on peak prices and we already have a huge amount of commercial scale grid level storage. Hydro (which is fairly abundant NZ) is a big grid level battery (the water in the dam is stored energy) that allows the dam output to ramp up and down in sync with demand, more cheaply and quickly than thermal based generators.

 

A practical example of the grid level storage effectiveness of hydro is in the UK where 3 of their most significant hydro dams act purely in a gird level storage arrangement. They do not produce any net output, but consume electricity off-peak by pumping water up hill and produce on-peak by running it down hill at a total efficiency of approx. 75%. This provides a 'dummy' load to expensive nuclear off peak and an assist on peak.

 

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/pumped-hydro-storage/

 

Edit: Hydro storage link


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Geek
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  Reply # 2087545 11-Sep-2018 14:48
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You are quite correct, I worked in the electricity supply industry in th U.K. for 27 years before emigrating but have worked closely with the E.S.I. in this country for 17 years.
I only mentioned EV to grid storage capacity because it is often quoted by pro solar and wind proponents as a cheap, future alternative to quite expensive standby generation or real life storage schemes such as pumped storage which are very efficient and have a very fast response time. They are alas very expensive and sites suitable to build them are few and far between. If there are any, I imagine that they are in the South Island not somewhere north of Auckland where they would be invaluable.
No, I see EV to grid a fanciful but unrealistic answer to storage problems.
The Electricty market in N.Z. Has become very complex as the players juggle to make demand side management work, as an alternative to building more none weather dependant generating capacity. Building generating capacity costs a lot of money and may even lower prices. Working a stretched system to hike up prices, even for the odd half hour, can pay for a lot of BMWs or Audis and our governments seem to be happy for the consumer too pay for it all.
Maybe that's because the government own one of the generating companies.

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  Reply # 2087546 11-Sep-2018 14:48
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Clawhammer:

Yes, shutting that smelter down would release a lot of generation but would be a massive hit to our export figures. Also, this is generation in the South Island, most of the consumption is in the north island and the H.V. D.C . Link doesn't have an infinite capacity.

 

It would also presumably reduce our bauxite imports by a corresponding amount.  So the net impact on balance of trade may not be that severe.  It would be a socio-economic disaster for Southland though.





Mike

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  Reply # 2087590 11-Sep-2018 15:18
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MikeAqua:

 

It would also presumably reduce our bauxite imports by a corresponding amount.  So the net impact on balance of trade may not be that severe.  It would be a socio-economic disaster for Southland though.

 

 

Tiwai is basically a way to export hydro electricity....

 

NZAS say it takes 14,500 Kwh per tonne of Al and that it produces around 360,000 tonnes  per year,  so that's 5.2 Billion Kwh... @10c unit that's $520 million net exports per year, at 15c/unit its $750 million

 

(Tiwai is a tolling plant so its exports won't be valued at the spot price, but the price NZAS sells the AL to its shareholders at, which will basically be cost + overheads)

 

https://www.nzas.co.nz/files/2011042692804-1303766884-1.pdf

 

 


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  Reply # 2087666 11-Sep-2018 16:45
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To be clear.

I wasn't advocating closing Tewai.

Just suggesting that there is a possibility that forces outside our control might result in another source of electricity for EV in future.

Out of curiosity, if Tewai did close and it's power was used for EV, trains etc how much foreign exchange would we save from not importing oil I wonder?


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  Reply # 2087883 12-Sep-2018 07:37
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afe66: To be clear.

I wasn't advocating closing Tewai.

Just suggesting that there is a possibility that forces outside our control might result in another source of electricity for EV in future.

Out of curiosity, if Tewai did close and it's power was used for EV, trains etc how much foreign exchange would we save from not importing oil I wonder?

 

 

 

Pretty much my point too, and also recognising that that in itself doesn't completely solve the issue because the power has to be moved.





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  Reply # 2087993 12-Sep-2018 09:01
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SaltyNZ:

 

Pretty much my point too, and also recognising that that in itself doesn't completely solve the issue because the power has to be moved.

 

 

Very important point.  Northern drift and urban drift are increasing the distance between generation and consumption.

 

There would be a logical case for establishing more generation in the upper half of the N Island.





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  Reply # 2088038 12-Sep-2018 09:33
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afe66:

Out of curiosity, if Tewai did close and it's power was used for EV, trains etc how much foreign exchange would we save from not importing oil I wonder?

 

its a question that's not really answerable, because it may not actually result in any extra electricity being available for hordes of EVs

 

in the short term what would happen is that Huntly would close and other gas plants would run less,( thus reducing total thermal generation),while  the renewable share of the grid would jump to over 90% actual power use would fall...

 

 


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  Reply # 2089230 12-Sep-2018 12:46
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http://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/pm-and-industry-announce-more-than-600m-for-zero-emission-vehicle-r-d

From "Institute of Mechanical Engineers"

Prime minister Theresa May and industry announce more than [1.2 billion NZD] for zero-emission vehicle R&D

More than [1.2 billion NZD] of new investments will create 1,000 jobs, make the UK a global leader in electric cars and help achieve emissions goals, the government has said.

"Prime minister Theresa May announced a [212 million NZD] funding boost for R&D on zero-emissions vehicles, including new batteries and low-carbon technology, at the Zero Emission Vehicle summit today in Birmingham. Companies also announced investments totalling more than [1 billion NZD] in low-emission technology.

The PM highlighted the ban on new petrol and diesel cars and vans from 2040. She said the investments “will drive the design, use, uptake and infrastructure necessary for cleaner, greener vehicles – and, in doing so, it will help us drastically reduce a major contributor to our global warming emissions, as we seek to meet the Paris Climate Change Agreement”.

Newly announced industry investments included an additional [100 million NZD] from Aston Martin for its new St Athan facility in Wales, which will become its centre for electrification and the home of the Lagonda brand. The investment will create an additional 200 jobs at the site, and the new plant will bring a total of up to 750 high-skilled jobs to South Wales.

Welsh secretary Alun Cairns called it “a ringing endorsement of what our nation has to offer to the automotive sector… I look forward to seeing the innovation come to life in the months and years ahead”.

Other investments came from Cummins, which will spend £210m on automotive and associated industry R&D over the next three years, and the EV Network, which is developing 200 fast-charging stations throughout the UK.

Seating expert Lear Corporation will create 220 jobs and safeguard another 600 with a [$70 million NZD] investment, including £35m in engineering. Zhuzhou CRRC Times Electric confirmed Birmingham as the location for its new R&D centre focusing on electric vehicles, rail and renewable energy, which will employ more than 150 engineers by 2022."

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  Reply # 2089240 12-Sep-2018 13:06
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kingdragonfly:

Seating expert Lear Corporation will create 220 jobs and safeguard another 600 with a [$70 million NZD] investment, including £35m in engineering.

 

 

 

 

'Seating expert'?





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  Reply # 2089284 12-Sep-2018 14:01
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richms:

 

afe66: What's this New Zealand EV incentive you talk of ?
It was in Auckland wasn't it?

I seriously doubt _anyone_ would have bought an event for the benefit of driving in those lanes...

 

If they extended it to onewa road I would have been out there getting the cheapest piece of crap that qualified in order to use that lane in the morning.

 



It wouldn't really matter. If you ever stand and watch what happens......the people in the 'queue-jumper' lane race past the people in the ramp lane....and then have to merge.....and EVERYONE slows down.

So it's the old '5-cars-ahead-but-20-seconds-slower' thing.

You THINK you're ahead.....but overall, all the queuejumpers do - is slow themselves and everyone else down.

But emotionally......it's very appealing.

The police shut down passing lanes on holiday weekends for the ver same reason.....all the people "passing" just create congestion when they merge back in...and they ALL actually go slower.

As an incentive, this one never made any real sense from a traffic point of view.





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


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  Reply # 2089396 12-Sep-2018 16:16
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SaltyNZ:

kingdragonfly:

Seating expert Lear Corporation will create 220 jobs and safeguard another 600 with a [$70 million NZD] investment, including £35m in engineering.



 


'Seating expert'?



I don't see the connection either.

Car seats and steering wheels engineering is rather difficult, due to various regulations and testing.


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  Reply # 2089416 12-Sep-2018 16:42
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kingdragonfly: http://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/pm-and-industry-announce-more-than-600m-for-zero-emission-vehicle-r-d

From "Institute of Mechanical Engineers"

Prime minister Theresa May and industry announce more than [1.2 billion NZD] for zero-emission vehicle R&D

More than [1.2 billion NZD] of new investments will create 1,000 jobs, make the UK a global leader in electric cars and help achieve emissions goals, the government has said.

"Prime minister Theresa May announced a [212 million NZD] funding boost for R&D on zero-emissions vehicles, including new batteries and low-carbon technology, at the Zero Emission Vehicle summit today in Birmingham. Companies also announced investments totalling more than [1 billion NZD] in low-emission technology.

The PM highlighted the ban on new petrol and diesel cars and vans from 2040. She said the investments “will drive the design, use, uptake and infrastructure necessary for cleaner, greener vehicles – and, in doing so, it will help us drastically reduce a major contributor to our global warming emissions, as we seek to meet the Paris Climate Change Agreement”.

Newly announced industry investments included an additional [100 million NZD] from Aston Martin for its new St Athan facility in Wales, which will become its centre for electrification and the home of the Lagonda brand. The investment will create an additional 200 jobs at the site, and the new plant will bring a total of up to 750 high-skilled jobs to South Wales.

Welsh secretary Alun Cairns called it “a ringing endorsement of what our nation has to offer to the automotive sector… I look forward to seeing the innovation come to life in the months and years ahead”.

Other investments came from Cummins, which will spend £210m on automotive and associated industry R&D over the next three years, and the EV Network, which is developing 200 fast-charging stations throughout the UK.

Seating expert Lear Corporation will create 220 jobs and safeguard another 600 with a [$70 million NZD] investment, including £35m in engineering. Zhuzhou CRRC Times Electric confirmed Birmingham as the location for its new R&D centre focusing on electric vehicles, rail and renewable energy, which will employ more than 150 engineers by 2022."

 

Different subject, but that's mostly a distraction so that Theresa May had something to say at a motor manufacturer's event that wasn't about the death of the UK motor manufacturing industry in the event of a no deal Brexit. 


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