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Rikkitic
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  #2139518 5-Dec-2018 08:05
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Here is an interesting insider piece by someone who used to work for Tesla. Elon Musk's eccentricities aside, what caught my attention are the quotes relating to attempts by the motor industry to kill electric cars. I recall a documentary about this some years ago as well as other reports. What makes this relevant are the comments that still keep cropping up here and elsewhere about electric cars burdening the environment more than ICE vehicles and other fossil fuel propaganda. I find these quotes of particular interest:

 

"Fossil fuel groups have been lobbying and campaigning and spreading disinformation about electric cars for a long time now - and continue to.

 

"Most recently the Koch brothers - who are two of the richest people who have ever existed ... last year they funded this campaign called ‘Fuelling US Forward’ which was supposed to espouse the benefits of glorious fossil fuels, but actually instead focused on taking down Elon Musk and taking down electric cars."

 

He says one of the things the company was trying to suggest was that electric cars are worse for the environment than petrol, which "is just not true".

 

"Even in the dirtiest coal grid situations electric cars are better for the environment when you account for the total production costs than even the most efficient gasoline vehicles ... that's out of a study from the Union of Concerned Scientists.

 

"The other point … the electric grids in the US and China are cleaning up - so in the US, coal accounts for 30 percent of the electric grid and 10 years ago it was 50 percent. Renewables are on the rise.

 

"Those electric cars clean up as the electric grid cleans up, and that’s an advantage that can never be said … for petrol cars."

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


afe66
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  #2139588 5-Dec-2018 09:19
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I'm not surprised.

The constant drip drip of negative stories is depressing whether it's the AA , newspapers, media personalities. Why all the anger?

I find it increasingly hard to believe we are the same country that protestested against nuclear power in 80's.

We no longer seem to care about uncomfortable hard big issues anymore.



 
 
 
 


wellygary
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  #2139595 5-Dec-2018 09:29
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Rikkitic:

 

"The other point … the electric grids in the US and China are cleaning up - so in the US, coal accounts for 30 percent of the electric grid and 10 years ago it was 50 percent. Renewables are on the rise.

 

 

Yeah, Although the biggest displacer of Coal in the US isn't renewables,  its cheap gas (which has come about because of fracking)  

 

15% of the lost 20% coal generation has been be taken up by gas.... renewables took up the remaining 5%.

 

 


tripper1000
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  #2139661 5-Dec-2018 10:24
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Some people can't move with the times. The USA can stick with the old way but it will further cement their demise as a technological and economic leader and allow China to usurp them. It is a great way to ensure perpetual tension in the Middle East. The lack of innovation shows that the current leaders don't truly understand how they got there and have gotten there on the backs of others. Time for them to go.

 

China is embracing EV's and renewables in a huge way. There has been greater numbers of EV uptake in China than the rest of the world combined. I suspect it is inevitable that the majority of cars on our roads in 20 years time will be Chinese and electric.


Rikkitic
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  #2139681 5-Dec-2018 10:57
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There was also a lot of noise the other day about GM closing factories and moving out of car production. I wonder if these could be related in any way.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


frankv
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  #2139714 5-Dec-2018 11:34
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Rikkitic:

 

"Those electric cars clean up as the electric grid cleans up, and that’s an advantage that can never be said … for petrol cars."

 

 

Not entirely true... the emissions caused by *manufacture* of petrol cars will also reduce as the electric grid cleans up. And increased demand for electricity would slow down the cleaning up of the grid. And emissions caused by transport of materials for manufacture of electric cars will be largely unchanged for some time.

 

[Lest anyone thinks I'm paid megabucks by the oil industry to pooh-pooh the electrics, I do believe that electrics are the right way to go. I just want the facts to be correct. [And I drive a 13yo car].]

 

 


SaltyNZ
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  #2139718 5-Dec-2018 11:38
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frankv:

 

Rikkitic:

 

"Those electric cars clean up as the electric grid cleans up, and that’s an advantage that can never be said … for petrol cars."

 

 

Not entirely true... the emissions caused by *manufacture* of petrol cars will also reduce as the electric grid cleans up. And increased demand for electricity would slow down the cleaning up of the grid. And emissions caused by transport of materials for manufacture of electric cars will be largely unchanged for some time.

 

[Lest anyone thinks I'm paid megabucks by the oil industry to pooh-pooh the electrics, I do believe that electrics are the right way to go. I just want the facts to be correct. [And I drive a 13yo car].]

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is still somewhat true, because the manufacturing costs of the EVs will also clean up as the energy cleans up, meaning that petrol cars still do not have that as an advantage over EVs. ;-)





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


 
 
 
 


frednz
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  #2139764 5-Dec-2018 12:17
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tripper1000:

 

Some people can't move with the times. The USA can stick with the old way but it will further cement their demise as a technological and economic leader and allow China to usurp them. It is a great way to ensure perpetual tension in the Middle East. The lack of innovation shows that the current leaders don't truly understand how they got there and have gotten there on the backs of others. Time for them to go.

 

China is embracing EV's and renewables in a huge way. There has been greater numbers of EV uptake in China than the rest of the world combined. I suspect it is inevitable that the majority of cars on our roads in 20 years time will be Chinese and electric.

 

 

But what sort of EVs are sold in China and why can't similar vehicles be sold here? We need in NZ new small EVs costing around $15,000 - $25,000 that are suitable for around town use so it doesn't matter if they have a range of only, say 150km (or even less).

 

Paxter-type vehicles used by NZ Post show what can be done and if these were modified so that they are safe and practical for use by the general public, then the uptake of EVs in NZ might start to move a lot faster!

 

 


SaltyNZ
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  #2139765 5-Dec-2018 12:24
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Well, according to some random website I found through Google, they seem to be roughly $20,000-$40,000 for Chinese brands with nominal ranges between about 150-400km.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


wellygary
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  #2139768 5-Dec-2018 12:33
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frednz:

 

But what sort of EVs are sold in China and why can't similar vehicles be sold here? We need in NZ new small EVs costing around $15,000 - $25,000 that are suitable for around town use so it doesn't matter if they have a range of only, say 150km (or even less).

 

Paxter-type vehicles used by NZ Post show what can be done and if these were modified so that they are safe and practical for use by the general public, then the uptake of EVs in NZ might start to move a lot faster!

 

 

The biggest selling EV in China currently is the BAIC EC... it will do 160km and would cost ~43K NZD here ...... (Y160K @ex rate of 4.7 +15% GST +some shipping) ... They sell like Hotcakes in China because of the subsidies...

 

the Laws of Physics (or more specifically the price of batteries ) mean a ~$25K NZD  EV unsubsidized is not yet possible...

 

https://cdn1.wattev2buy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/22084210/BAIC-EC200-SPECS-CARD.png


tdgeek
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  #2139769 5-Dec-2018 12:38
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And if you give a small subsidy, there will be knockers as its too small. If you gave a large subsidy you get knockers as its too large.

 

You will get knockers anyway as not everyone can afford a 25k car no matter what it is

 

 


Ge0rge
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  #2139773 5-Dec-2018 12:43
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I read an article recently (source elludes me right now) that said Mazda were only going to have 5% EV in the coming years. If the car companies won't embrace EVs, it'll be very hard for the general public to.

Edit: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/10/03/mazda-will-build-only-5-evs-by-2030-most-phevs/

frankv
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  #2139775 5-Dec-2018 12:49
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frednz:

 

But what sort of EVs are sold in China and why can't similar vehicles be sold here? We need in NZ new small EVs costing around $15,000 - $25,000 that are suitable for around town use so it doesn't matter if they have a range of only, say 150km (or even less).

 

 

Without a good long distance public transport system, NZers need a car in each family with long range. So your cheap?, short-range car is only useful for families as a second car. Which immediately excludes it for all single-car families. And $15-25K for that second car excludes most two-car families as well.

 

Admittedly, the cost savings of the electric car versus petrol should make it an economic proposition even at that price versus a $5,000 secondhand petrol car. But that depends on being able to raise the cash for the purchase... so it's probably only accessible to home-owning two-car families.

 

The Govt could probably increase the uptake of EVs by making money available as a loan, to be paid off over the life of the vehicle.

 

 


SaltyNZ
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  #2139783 5-Dec-2018 13:02
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frankv:

 

Without a good long distance public transport system, NZers need a car in each family with long range.

 

 

 

 

Do they? Really? There are a lot of expensive things people need once a year or maybe less. Trailers, chain saws, cement mixers, Bobcats ... but they mostly don't buy them. They hire them as and when required.

 

We are going to drive our nominally-160km-range Leaf from Warkworth to Eltham at Christmas. We are planning to do it over two days, so there would be overnight accommodation cost to consider. As an alternative, we could just hire an ICE if we really really had to be there in less than 5 hours. Either way the amount we save every month versus a petrol bill more than makes up for the extra cost of overnighting or car hire once a year (if that).

 

If I was planning to drive to Eltham every weekend I might feel differently, but I think you're greatly exaggerating the rare inconveniences and generalising them as a reason to say that EVs are no good for anyone.

 

 





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


Rikkitic
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  #2139794 5-Dec-2018 13:12
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If a certain government hadn't eviscerated our railway system there would still be commuter trains on the East coast from Wellington to Gisborne and I would gladly use them, as I once did. Playing chicken with overloaded logging trucks on the road to Wairoa is not my idea of fun. And yes, I know there was a storm, but a government without an ideological fixation against rail would have immediately repaired the damage.

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


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