EV (electric vehicle) general news

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Reply # 2140361 6-Dec-2018 09:15

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SaltyNZ:

GV27:

The competition for EVs is 2nd hand cars that can do 500km on a tank with no issuescost $110 to drive 500km vs. $15, leaving you with an additional $95 in your pocket to spend on holidaying.

And, these arguments over the suitability of EV's are all redundant. They suit some people perfectly, they dont suit others. Same applies to 3 door shopping baskets and 5 door SUV behemoths.

I'm not sure why there is so much antiness about them. They are a choice, they have benefits, they suit some, not others. 100% the same as every other car that has been produced

tripper1000

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Reply # 2140364 6-Dec-2018 09:35

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GV27: You could do all that with a range of 30km, that doesn't change the fact it would be more tedious and impractical than it needs to be.

The competition for EVs is 2nd hand cars that can do 500km on a tank with no issues.

Not many people ask car salesmen what the range of an ICE is, other than in the context of fuel economy. Whilst a range of 30km would certainly be tedious and impractical, the fact is that the majority of people travel less than 100km per day, so for the majority of people a range of ~150km would be fine. The only reason why range is important is not for long journey's but because people don't want to visit a gas station daily, and they almost always assume that an EV has to make a detour and visit a charging station equivalent of a gas station and waste time actively waiting for an EV to recharge. You see the penny dropping when they ask "you mean you can plug your car in at home - to a normal plug?"

Most people intuitively transpose ICE philosophies to EV and don't even realise their mental stating point is not accurate.

If your petrol tank magically refilled itself to 1/4 tank every night, how often would you visit a petrol station? Once or twice a year is the usual answer.

SaltyNZ

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Reply # 2140366 6-Dec-2018 09:38

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tripper1000:

the fact is that the majority of people travel less than 100km per day, so for the majority of people a range of ~150km would be fine.

According to MoT's statistics, the average daily drive distance was 28km/day in 2013. I don't know of any newer statistics than that but it is unlikely to have increased to 200km/day in the meantime.

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tdgeek

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Reply # 2140371 6-Dec-2018 09:44

tripper1000:

GV27: You could do all that with a range of 30km, that doesn't change the fact it would be more tedious and impractical than it needs to be.

The competition for EVs is 2nd hand cars that can do 500km on a tank with no issues.

Not many people ask car salesmen what the range of an ICE is, other than in the context of fuel economy. Whilst a range of 30km would certainly be tedious and impractical, the fact is that the majority of people travel less than 100km per day, so for the majority of people a range of ~150km would be fine. The only reason why range is important is not for long journey's but because people don't want to visit a gas station daily, and they almost always assume that an EV has to make a detour and visit a charging station equivalent of a gas station and waste time actively waiting for an EV to recharge. You see the penny dropping when they ask "you mean you can plug your car in at home - to a normal plug?"

Most people intuitively transpose ICE philosophies to EV and don't even realise their mental stating point is not accurate.

If your petrol tank magically refilled itself to 1/4 tank every night, how often would you visit a petrol station? Once or twice a year is the usual answer.

Very much so. The human mindset feels safest with what we know and trust. Its easier to bury ones head and be safe. One day in the future we will take the plunge when we see enough EV's to prove its safe.

SaltyNZ

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Reply # 2140380 6-Dec-2018 09:55

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tdgeek:

Very much so. The human mindset feels safest with what we know and trust. Its easier to bury ones head and be safe. One day in the future we will take the plunge when we see enough EV's to prove its safe.

I'll admit I was a bit nervous before buying our Leaf, but I had done my homework and I knew that actually, it would work fine for my daily trips for at least 3-4 years before the batteries degraded enough that I would have to charge during the day to reliably be able to make it home. And I knew that at that point there were plenty of options - there are chargers roughly every 10km between home and work now, let alone in 4 years time; in 4 years I could reasonably expect a decent range of options for battery replacement at prices that would at least break even against annual ICE servicing over the same period, or most likely, the car could be handed off to wife (who commutes half the distance) or possibly kids (our son will be of driving age by then) and a new EV with 2-3x the range purchased.

The fear is all in my head. The reality is that it does more than we need it to, 363 days of the year, and for the other 2 days I have plenty of options if I need them up to and including just taking longer to do the trip and enjoying it more instead of trying to do the whole thing in the shortest possible time and arriving exhausted, pissed off and poorer.

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Reply # 2140416 6-Dec-2018 10:21

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SaltyNZ:

frankv:

Sure, you could live entirely within one city, but that would be be a very limited life. Beach? Holidays? Visits to friends/relatives?

Yes, you can do all of that in a car with 150km range. It's not joined to your house by a cable, you know.

*I* can't. Last holiday was a drive around the South Island, including driving across Molesworth.

alasta

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Reply # 2140432 6-Dec-2018 10:56

SaltyNZ:
tripper1000:

the fact is that the majority of people travel less than 100km per day, so for the majority of people a range of ~150km would be fine.

According to MoT's statistics, the average daily drive distance was 28km/day in 2013. I don't know of any newer statistics than that but it is unlikely to have increased to 200km/day in the meantime.

That stat really makes me wonder why those trips are not being made using public transport. It would be far more cost effective than having everyone running around in EVs.

tripper1000

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Reply # 2140434 6-Dec-2018 10:57

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frankv: *I* can't. Last holiday was a drive around the South Island, including driving across Molesworth.

By that logic because *I* need to be to move sheets of plywood, 5 cubes of firewood, move large furniture and take a load of rubbish to the tip once or twice a year, *I* should buy a truck as my daily driver. Or because I take my car to Waiheke Island once a year, I need an amphibious car.

Or the more logical approach is I hire a trailer/truck/buy a ferry ticket to do this job like most normal people because that is more economical. Now take this logical, economical approach and apply it to your holiday. If your EV saves $2K a year on gas like mine does, you can economically hire a vehicle that is perfect for your holiday. The advantage then is that you are not compromising between what is right for your daily drive and what it right for holidays - if your holiday is camping, it could be a camper you hire, or a 4x4 for skiing/going through Molesworth, or a van for your motor-cross adventures.

At the end of the day your vehicle needs to be perfect for your everyday journeys, not your once in a year journeys.

ockel

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Reply # 2140442 6-Dec-2018 11:11

Rikkitic:

Not to mention David Attenborough's point about collapsing civilisation and the extinction of most life on earth. Maybe people just need to quit being so damned selfish and put things like the survival of the planet ahead of their personal convenience. Unless, of course, you deny there is a problem.

It would appear that the French population deny that there is a problem. Rather than pay higher fuel taxes (and incur a higher cost of living) to wean themselves off their diesels they choose to riot and force the French Government to cancel said tax increase. Their personal wealth and personal convenience are being put ahead of their country, their neighbours and the worlds survival. And this despite the significant financial incentives to switch to electric and low-emission vehicles. Super bonus to give up your diesel? Or riot in the street at a 10c/litre tax increase.

Are the French being "fleeced" by the petrol companies - and those companies held to account? No, its the Government to blame with its rising excise tax and as such the French people need to stop such an increase for the sake of their fuel needs. You'll note that the French already pay 10% more per litre than NZ.

https://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/sectors-industries/energy/liquid-fuel-market/weekly-fuel-price-monitoring

SaltyNZ

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Reply # 2140444 6-Dec-2018 11:15

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And in 50 years they'll be rioting to force the French Government to put up walls around Paris to keep the sea out.

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GV27

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Reply # 2140449 6-Dec-2018 11:28

alasta:
SaltyNZ:

tripper1000:

the fact is that the majority of people travel less than 100km per day, so for the majority of people a range of ~150km would be fine.

According to MoT's statistics, the average daily drive distance was 28km/day in 2013. I don't know of any newer statistics than that but it is unlikely to have increased to 200km/day in the meantime.

That stat really makes me wonder why those trips are not being made using public transport. It would be far more cost effective than having everyone running around in EVs.

Because people's time is not worthless.

tripper1000:

GV27: You could do all that with a range of 30km, that doesn't change the fact it would be more tedious and impractical than it needs to be.

The competition for EVs is 2nd hand cars that can do 500km on a tank with no issues.

Not many people ask car salesmen what the range of an ICE is, other than in the context of fuel economy. Whilst a range of 30km would certainly be tedious and impractical, the fact is that the majority of people travel less than 100km per day, so for the majority of people a range of ~150km would be fine. The only reason why range is important is not for long journey's but because people don't want to visit a gas station daily, and they almost always assume that an EV has to make a detour and visit a charging station equivalent of a gas station and waste time actively waiting for an EV to recharge. You see the penny dropping when they ask "you mean you can plug your car in at home - to a normal plug?"

Most people intuitively transpose ICE philosophies to EV and don't even realise their mental stating point is not accurate.

If your petrol tank magically refilled itself to 1/4 tank every night, how often would you visit a petrol station? Once or twice a year is the usual answer.

...which is why an EV with a range of 150km might suit for 90% of applications like commuting, but people will still need to find a different car for the 10% of times it won't. Once you line up the range of an EV with the distances most people drive on a long distance trip before taking a break (I'd say 300km max) then it covers 100% of situations. That's the sweet spot we're about to hit.

SaltyNZ:

And in 50 years they'll be rioting to force the French Government to put up walls around Paris to keep the sea out.

Paris is 35m above sea level.

DeepBlueSky

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Reply # 2140453 6-Dec-2018 11:34

Hi Guys,

I may have already seen the RIVIAN EV Ute / SUV looks cool and with amazing capabilities.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/rivian/2020-rivian-r1t-pickup-ar183552.html

SaltyNZ

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Reply # 2140457 6-Dec-2018 11:36

GV27:

alasta:
SaltyNZ:

tripper1000:

the fact is that the majority of people travel less than 100km per day, so for the majority of people a range of ~150km would be fine.

According to MoT's statistics, the average daily drive distance was 28km/day in 2013. I don't know of any newer statistics than that but it is unlikely to have increased to 200km/day in the meantime.

That stat really makes me wonder why those trips are not being made using public transport. It would be far more cost effective than having everyone running around in EVs.

Because people's time is not worthless.

Sadly, that is it exactly. In theory there's now a bus service that means I could go from Warkworth to Newmarket. It would take over two hours, I would arrive an hour and a half late for work and cost about three times as much as driving ... but it's technically possible.

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frankv

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Reply # 2140467 6-Dec-2018 11:53

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tripper1000:

frankv: *I* can't. Last holiday was a drive around the South Island, including driving across Molesworth.

By that logic because *I* need to be to move sheets of plywood, 5 cubes of firewood, move large furniture and take a load of rubbish to the tip once or twice a year, *I* should buy a truck as my daily driver. Or because I take my car to Waiheke Island once a year, I need an amphibious car.

Or the more logical approach is I hire a trailer/truck/buy a ferry ticket to do this job like most normal people because that is more economical. Now take this logical, economical approach and apply it to your holiday. If your EV saves $2K a year on gas like mine does, you can economically hire a vehicle that is perfect for your holiday. The advantage then is that you are not compromising between what is right for your daily drive and what it right for holidays - if your holiday is camping, it could be a camper you hire, or a 4x4 for skiing/going through Molesworth, or a van for your motor-cross adventures.

At the end of the day your vehicle needs to be perfect for your everyday journeys, not your once in a year journeys.

A vehicle is never perfect for any journey. How many seats in your car? How many of them are full every day? A vehicle is a compromise of what you want once a year versus what you want every day.

So, anyway, he said "you can do all of that in a car with 150km range" in reply to me. Which I've shown was a nonsensical assumption about my lifestyle and car usage. I think you'll agree that a car with 150km range wouldn't have done that for me. Suggesting that I hire an ICE car to do what I did just shows that an EV couldn't "do all of that".

If I bought an EV, I would probably get quite a bit more than $2K per year fuel savings, but a large chunk of that saving would be spent as interest on the money borrowed to buy the EV (being $15K or so more than an equivalent ICE). And another large chunk would need to be saved to pay for the battery replacement. There wouldn't be $2K left over to hire a car for a couple of weeks, let alone a 4x4 (not that one is needed for Molesworth... an ordinary 2WD car does just fine).

So, when I did the calculation, an EV would have been a small annual saving overall. However, I expect/plan/hope that when I replace my current ICE car I'll get an EV a whole lot cheaper than you bought yours for (maybe I'll buy yours second-hand), so the annual saving will be much better.

I'm happy that, for your lifestyle, an EV is good. I'm happy that you have an EV. But I don't think an EV the right choice for me right now.

WyleECoyoteNZ

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Reply # 2140512 6-Dec-2018 13:10

A couple of my thoughts around EV's

1) If you take a city like Wellington, and in particular suburbs like Mt Victoria, Mt Cook, Newtown and Thorndon, each day down any residential street you'll see cars parked on the side of the road. Chances are that the majority of those cars parked will belong to the residents living near by. If they car is a conventional ICE powered vehicle, if they need to fill up they can do so at there choice of service station. Now if these people were to buy an EV, charging it becomes rather difficult. Maybe they are lucky enough to have a garage, but a lot won't be. This type of scenario won't be restricted to just Wellington, but will be common across most NZ cities.

2) A third of NZer's don't own there own home. For those that rent, maybe they're lucky enough to have a garage or maybe they don't. Even if they do have a garage, that's no guarantee that's if fit for purpose to be able to charge an EV. I know from personal experience that a house I've rented had a garage, but that garage was not fit for purpose for charging an EV

3) The argument around owning an EV, then hiring a ICE for the traditional kiwi Christmas road trip. Sounds good in theory, but how many would actually do this in practice? My guess would be not many. Chances are that if you've saved X dollars a week\fortnight\month on fuel by driving a EV, then that money saved is simply re purposed somewhere else in the household budget.

On the subject of money saved by driving an EV is sufficient to fund the hiring of a ICE for your holiday. I'd currently spend around $60 a fortnight on Petrol for our current vehicle. If i purchased an EV and diverted $40 of that current petrol spend to a Hire ICE account, over the course of a year I'd have just over $1,000 for the hiring of a ICE. That's not even close to being enough for a family of 4 (which is what ours is) for a 2 week south island holiday.

Yes maybe you could have 2 cars instead, an EV for daily driving\commuting\shopping and a ICE for the road trips, but then again not everyone can afford the luxury of running 2 vehicles. I know I can't.

Maybe you could just own a affordable (sub $25k, e.g. Leaf) EV and have that as your single vehicle and for the road trips just accept that it is going to take longer to get to your destination, but if you only have limited annual leave spending maybe 4 days just traveling (2 days to your destination and 2 days back again) is going to either a) make your stay shorter and maybe less relaxing at your destination or b) have the need for you to use more of your leave to give you that same time away.

Anyway, that's my thoughts for now, maybe you agree, maybe you don't.

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