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wellygary
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  #2187642 26-Feb-2019 16:10
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tripper1000:

 

wellygary: We need to stop burning fossil fuels ASAP.

 

Negative.

 

We need to build an alternate ASAP.

 

If you provide an alternate that is cheaper and/or better, people will use it.

 

If you want to turn off the carbon with no alternate in place and literally leave millions of people out in the cold, then nobody will listen to you. Gas is less bad than coal. No it is not the end solution, but it is a practical step in the right direction. If the exploration/drilling/generation ban was accompanied by a replacement renewable incentive or renewable construction project, I wouldn't be critical, but it wasn't, so I am. As it stands, it's blind ideology, that is doomed to fail, not environmental leadership that is bound to succeed.

 

This is why I label the hydro and wind haters pseudo-environmentalists. Their attitudes perpetuate the use of carbon and creation of pollution.

 

 

Agreed, in Democratic societies the solution is to ensure that when things are replaced lower carbon options are cheaper and easier to select.

 

My point was *if* you believe this then you can't agree with Norway continuing to export its oil.... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


SaltyNZ
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  #2187823 27-Feb-2019 07:17
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wellygary:

 

Agreed, in Democratic societies the solution is to ensure that when things are replaced lower carbon options are cheaper and easier to select.

 

My point was *if* you believe this then you can't agree with Norway continuing to export its oil.... 

 

 

 

 

And arguably, that's exactly what the government has done. If we hypothetically were to run out of gas because we banned new mining and can't import it, then renewables are cheaper and easier to select, except we still have coal. So I agree with what @Arenwood said, which is that we ought to be shuttering the coal mines instead of the gas fields as gas is much cleaner than coal in every respect.





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


 
 
 
 


Rikkitic
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  #2187869 27-Feb-2019 08:56
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Are we really talking about the same thing here? I assume coal exploration is no longer happening (is that correct?) so any that is used comes from known reserves or even imports. Coal can be imported. Gas apparently cannot. The ban is on new exploration, not existing extraction. What (as always) does Winston think? I am sure there are political reasons, maybe even good ones, for the choice that was made. At least it is an acknowledgement of the problem (fossil fuels must be curbed) and a step in the right direction. Of course I would also have preferred that coal was immediately banned but there must be a reason for doing it this way.

 

 

 

 





I don't think there is ever a bad time to talk about how absurd war is, how old men make decisions and young people die. - George Clooney
 


dacraka
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  #2187873 27-Feb-2019 09:07
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GV27:

 

https://insideevs.com/electric-peugeot-e208-detail-specs-images-videos/

 

Electric 208 coming this year. 300km range, doesn't look bad. 

 

 

Looks very much like it still utilizes ICE design schematics looking at the internal image on that website. Specs other than the range don't look that great for its potential price. Otherwise it looks good : )


SaltyNZ
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  #2187879 27-Feb-2019 09:19
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Rikkitic:

 

Are we really talking about the same thing here? I assume coal exploration is no longer happening (is that correct?) so any that is used comes from known reserves or even imports. Coal can be imported. Gas apparently cannot. The ban is on new exploration, not existing extraction. What (as always) does Winston think? I am sure there are political reasons, maybe even good ones, for the choice that was made. At least it is an acknowledgement of the problem (fossil fuels must be curbed) and a step in the right direction. Of course I would also have preferred that coal was immediately banned but there must be a reason for doing it this way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

New offshore gas exploration and mining permits have been banned, but as far as I know new coal exploration and mining permits have not. I personally would've killed coal before gas because as others have pointed out, it's relatively trivial to convert a coal boiler to a gas boiler just by bolting a burner on where the coal loading door used to be, and gas is much cleaner. I do not know why the government has chosen to do it this way instead. I assume, 'politics,' but I don't see exactly what the motivation would have been.





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tdgeek
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  #2187908 27-Feb-2019 09:59
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I don't know of the usage stats of gas. How the mined gas is used for 9kg bottles, 45kg bottles for consumer HW and cooking, electricity generation, and whatever else it's used for in NZ. I can see a day where gas exploration ban on new is put back. Ideally as a coal ban is  brought forward. Do we generate electricity from coal and gas? What is involved to make that gas only?


wellygary
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  #2187911 27-Feb-2019 10:05
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SaltyNZ:

 

New offshore gas exploration and mining permits have been banned, but as far as I know new coal exploration and mining permits have not. I personally would've killed coal before gas because as others have pointed out, it's relatively trivial to convert a coal boiler to a gas boiler just by bolting a burner on where the coal loading door used to be, and gas is much cleaner. I do not know why the government has chosen to do it this way instead. I assume, 'politics,' but I don't see exactly what the motivation would have been.

 

 

Exploring for Oil  and Gas is easy to regulate (ban) because under the Crown Minerals act, the Govt owns all the Oil, Gold, silver and Uranium in the ground in NZ....

 

Coal on the other hand is not a crown mineral, so you only need the land owners permission, There are fair few "micro" coal operations that are just like quarries in NZ, that have very little govt regulation (health and safety excluded)

 

Replacing Coal with gas is possible where you have access to piped gas, but there is no gas network in the South island, (where a big chunk of the coal burning dairy factories are)..


 
 
 
 


wellygary
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  #2187912 27-Feb-2019 10:07
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tdgeek:

 

I don't know of the usage stats of gas. How the mined gas is used for 9kg bottles, 45kg bottles for consumer HW and cooking, electricity generation, and whatever else it's used for in NZ. I can see a day where gas exploration ban on new is put back. Ideally as a coal ban is  brought forward. Do we generate electricity from coal and gas? What is involved to make that gas only?

 

 

Other than peaker power plants the single biggest gas user in NZ is the Methanol plant in Taranaki...


SaltyNZ
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  #2187917 27-Feb-2019 10:20
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wellygary:

 

Exploring for Oil  and Gas is easy to regulate (ban) because under the Crown Minerals act, the Govt owns all the Oil, Gold, silver and Uranium in the ground in NZ....

 

Coal on the other hand is not a crown mineral,

 

 

 

 

Ah, yes, that's true. Interesting they included uranium but not coal. I assume uranium is there so as to stop small-time uranium mining in the way you mention happens with coal.





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


tripper1000
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  #2187923 27-Feb-2019 10:25
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You guys are kind of missing my point about banning stuff. Coal and gas cause CO2, so the popularist reaction is to ban it. But banning coal and gas is just tackling another symptom of the problem not the ultimate cause - banning gas and coal is/would be a popularist reaction, not a practical solution. 

 

We burn coal and gas because we have insufficient renewables for our growing population and growing EV fleet (we presently have a 20% shortfall, that is getting larger). If we had sufficient renewables, you wouldn't need to  ban gas or coal from electricity production - they would naturally die out because they would get undercut and be unprofitable. The problem is that no private company can get any significant renewable project past the RMA now days. The Greenies in government are disingenuous because what they say and what they do, are not same thing.

 

Norway has made EV's extremely popular, not by banning ICE, but by making the alternates to ICE (comparatively) cheaper.


frankv
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  #2187927 27-Feb-2019 10:33
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What's the lead time from exploration to production for oil & gas? For example, Maui was discovered in 1969, and production began in 1979, so I guess about 10 years, maybe less with today's technology. We currently have about 11 years of reserves, so even if *no* new gas is found under the existing permits, and there's no reduction in gas usage, we don't need to do anything for the next year or so.

 

From a residential consumer's point of view, heat pumps now mean that electric heating is about as cheap as gas heating, so there's no great cost in switching from gas to electricity. From the environmental point of view, heat pumps not only don't produce CO2, but they don't even contribute greatly to global warming, because they're cooling the outside air when the warm the inside of a house. So residential gas demand will fall as time goes by.

 

As the global vehicle fleet moves from ICE to EV, the demand for fossil fuels will fall, and so will the price, making development of new oilfields increasingly uneconomic. Add to this that the best prospects have already been explored, and the best of the rest have already got permits for exploration, so it's only the dregs that are left. It's diminishing returns for increasing costs. I'm surprised that there is even a hoo-hah over banning exploration of areas that no-one has really wanted to explore. Seems like a storm in a teacup whipped up to hurricane force by the alt.right?

 

But yes... I don't understand why coal is not being banned. Maybe it's already marginally economic (viz Solid Energy failure), or maybe all the exploration has pretty much been done, so no-one is interested in new coal exploration. I wonder about converting coal into gas, as used to be done at "gas-works" around the world. Could that be done economically & cleanly?

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2187929 27-Feb-2019 10:35
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tripper1000:

 

You guys are kind of missing my point about banning stuff. Coal and gas cause CO2, so the popularist reaction is to ban it. But banning coal and gas is just tackling another symptom of the problem not the ultimate cause - banning gas and coal is/would be a popularist reaction, not a practical solution. 

 

We burn coal and gas because we have insufficient renewables for our growing population and growing EV fleet (we presently have a 20% shortfall, that is getting larger). If we had sufficient renewables, you wouldn't need to  ban gas or coal from electricity production - they would naturally die out because they would get undercut and be unprofitable. The problem is that no private company can get any significant renewable project past the RMA now days. The Greenies in government are disingenuous because what they say and what they do, are not same thing.

 

Norway has made EV's extremely popular, not by banning ICE, but by making the alternates to ICE (comparatively) cheaper.

 

 

Hard to argue against that. What is bizarre is that with minor hype over EV, low takeup of Solar PV, big news about climate change, and some "progress" on CC by way of the ban on new exploration, is that the largest renewable, hydro, is never talked about except here. At a minimum I would have expected a debate on new hydro. Ok, I am sure it has probably been talked about by the media or politicians, but it has to be pretty infrequent and minor


SaltyNZ
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  #2187934 27-Feb-2019 10:46
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tripper1000:

 

You guys are kind of missing my point about banning stuff.

 

 

 

 

No, your point is taken. Banning coal & gas does make the alternatives cheaper. Alternatively you could allow them still but tax the hell out of them - which is another prong the government will be exploring as the Tax Working Group recommended giving much bigger teeth to the ETS to turn it into an effective tax.





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


SaltyNZ
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  #2187935 27-Feb-2019 10:47
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tdgeek:

 

At a minimum I would have expected a debate on new hydro. Ok, I am sure it has probably been talked about by the media or politicians, but it has to be pretty infrequent and minor

 

 

 

 

I'm under the impression that most of the good hydro spots are already taken?





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


Delphinus
483 posts

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  #2187940 27-Feb-2019 10:55
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It's about time to start using Manapōuri to charge our cars rather than subsidising Rio Tinto to make aluminium. 

 

At 850 MW installed capacity, it is the largest hydroelectric power station in New Zealand, and the second largest power station in New Zealand.


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