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tripper1000
1249 posts

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  #2271824 8-Jul-2019 13:26
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tdgeek:

 

Not trolling, just is it Tesla with all the smarts or Panasonic? Panasonic know batteries. And you would include EV tech? I have no doubt that they are in front, but did Tesla design all this from scratch? And why partner with Panasonic, there is no need to, to ensure battery supply. If this was the first EV model out, totally new, then that would be different, but I'm a little sceptical where Tesla actually fits in. What extra would I need to spend on another car to make up the range shortfall? Will their 64kW unit got 33% farther?

 

it is a collaboration. Tesla couldn't buy in enough batteries so built their own battery factory. They needed an battery expert to help them to save starting from scratch. Together they have come up with new proprietary chemistries (such as with less cobalt & possibly more silicon) that arguable Panasonic would not have/would not have needed to come up with on its own if it were still only making laptop and power tool cells.

 

Tesla became such a huge consumer of cells, that they were no longer constrained by the industry conventions/economies of scale and so they came up with (in collaboration with Panasonic) a new form-factor (2170) that improves the energy density further still.

 

Making their own batteries is one key example of the 10 year head-start Tesla have on competitors - no other car maker makes their own cells, which is significant because batteries are single most expensive component in an EV.

 

There is a world wide shortage of batteries (that has impacted other car manufacturers) so even if Tesla Car's was to go bust, their battery factory would stay in business.


tdgeek
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  #2271825 8-Jul-2019 13:29
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Obraik:

 

 

 

I really hope VW can do something good with their ID lineup.  I'm obviously a fan of Tesla but they need serious competition at the higher end to keep them innovating.  Audi, Jaguar and Mercedes haven't got there yet and Nissan is still bringing out new vehicles without any active battery management. At the moment it really seems like if you're buying a new EV you're best to get either a Tesla or something from Korea.

 

 

EV's have been out for many years, they have just meandered along. Before long you will find that the key features become standard for most cars.


 
 
 
 


GV27
2390 posts

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  #2271827 8-Jul-2019 13:33
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tripper1000:

 

Making their own batteries is one key example of the 10 year head-start Tesla have on competitors - no other car maker makes their own cells, which is significant because batteries are single most expensive component in an EV.

 

 

Guess again:

 

https://thedriven.io/2019/06/24/volkswagen-invests-in-electric-car-future-in-deal-with-battery-maker-northvolt/


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2271829 8-Jul-2019 13:38
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

I really hope VW can do something good with their ID lineup.  I'm obviously a fan of Tesla but they need serious competition at the higher end to keep them innovating.  Audi, Jaguar and Mercedes haven't got there yet and Nissan is still bringing out new vehicles without any active battery management. At the moment it really seems like if you're buying a new EV you're best to get either a Tesla or something from Korea.

 

 

EV's have been out for many years, they have just meandered along. Before long you will find that the key features become standard for most cars.

 

 

I'm not talking about features in the car but actual engineering. If the big guys are always playing catch up to what Tesla is doing then they're going to have problems.  I have more hope in other startups like Rivian than I do with the incumbent.


tripper1000
1249 posts

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  #2271834 8-Jul-2019 13:44
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GV27:

 

tripper1000: Making their own batteries is one key example of the 10 year head-start Tesla have on competitors - no other car maker makes their own cells, which is significant because batteries are single most expensive component in an EV.

 

Guess again:

 

https://thedriven.io/2019/06/24/volkswagen-invests-in-electric-car-future-in-deal-with-battery-maker-northvolt/  

 

Ok, so up until 2023 when VW production starts I will remain correct. The point is that Tesla is well ahead of even the worlds 2nd biggest car maker.

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2271836 8-Jul-2019 13:44
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

I really hope VW can do something good with their ID lineup.  I'm obviously a fan of Tesla but they need serious competition at the higher end to keep them innovating.  Audi, Jaguar and Mercedes haven't got there yet and Nissan is still bringing out new vehicles without any active battery management. At the moment it really seems like if you're buying a new EV you're best to get either a Tesla or something from Korea.

 

 

EV's have been out for many years, they have just meandered along. Before long you will find that the key features become standard for most cars.

 

 

I'm not talking about features in the car but actual engineering. If the big guys are always playing catch up to what Tesla is doing then they're going to have problems.  I have more hope in other startups like Rivian than I do with the incumbent.

 

 

Catchup is subjective. It sounds good, but it's subjective. To state that every other manufacturer will always be playing catchup is a big call. And to place more faith in startups than incumbent players, well thats a big call also. Remember we are just talking about cars. Nothing new at all. A new engine and a new fuel. If Tesla is ahead, thats very cool. But as can been from posts here, EVERYONE is getting into it.


tripper1000
1249 posts

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  #2271839 8-Jul-2019 13:53
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Tesla is arguable behind in the car body manufacturing field. (Other people have been doing it for 100 years). Primarily this is due to them starting with a blank sheet of paper and little experience.  This is a good thing and a curse. Parts of their bodies have been poorly designed (eg the door handles) and other parts have been "over engineered" leading to avoidable expense, but being different to "normal" conventions has lead to better safety. The Model 3 is the "safest" car ever tested in North America.

 

But when it come to the Electric drive chain and batteries, everyone is starting from scratch and Tesla clearly has a 10 year head start on the pack. The others will catch up but when guys like VW are just starting out and others haven't even started yet, 10+ years it s a huge head start.

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2271841 8-Jul-2019 13:57
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tripper1000:

 

GV27:

 

tripper1000: Making their own batteries is one key example of the 10 year head-start Tesla have on competitors - no other car maker makes their own cells, which is significant because batteries are single most expensive component in an EV.

 

Guess again:

 

https://thedriven.io/2019/06/24/volkswagen-invests-in-electric-car-future-in-deal-with-battery-maker-northvolt/  

 

Ok, so up until 2023 when VW production starts I will remain correct. The point is that Tesla is well ahead of even the worlds 2nd biggest car maker.

 

 

 

 

Right now, there is hardly any EV market. Few models, little if any supply, prices too high to allow a viable fuel saving cost. Right now, it doesnt really matter too much. The guy that opened the first store isnt selling much. When all the others "catch up" there will be more choice, better prices, better features, and battery production that can support the industry. All the tricks to making good batteries will be known and copied, thats what we do.  I can also see consolidation in battery production. Its futile to make a margin off the "fuel", they are better to maximise cost efficiencies with batteries in order to fuel sales of cars. Those that do this will steal a march quite possibly


GV27
2390 posts

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  #2271842 8-Jul-2019 13:58
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tripper1000:

 

Ok, so up until 2023 when VW production starts I will remain correct. The point is that Tesla is well ahead of even the worlds 2nd biggest car maker.

 

 

Guess we'll have to disagree on how subjective notions of being 'ahead' are. 

 

The only thing I can think of Tesla is well ahead on is missed production dates and I'm fairly sure VW has them beat in that department too. 


WyleECoyoteNZ
796 posts

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  #2271843 8-Jul-2019 13:59
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

I really hope VW can do something good with their ID lineup.  I'm obviously a fan of Tesla but they need serious competition at the higher end to keep them innovating.  Audi, Jaguar and Mercedes haven't got there yet and Nissan is still bringing out new vehicles without any active battery management. At the moment it really seems like if you're buying a new EV you're best to get either a Tesla or something from Korea.

 

 

EV's have been out for many years, they have just meandered along. Before long you will find that the key features become standard for most cars.

 

 

I'm not talking about features in the car but actual engineering. If the big guys are always playing catch up to what Tesla is doing then they're going to have problems.  I have more hope in other startups like Rivian than I do with the incumbent.

 

 

Catchup is subjective. It sounds good, but it's subjective. To state that every other manufacturer will always be playing catchup is a big call. And to place more faith in startups than incumbent players, well thats a big call also. Remember we are just talking about cars. Nothing new at all. A new engine and a new fuel. If Tesla is ahead, thats very cool. But as can been from posts here, EVERYONE is getting into it.

 

 

The Big boys maybe are playing catch up, but a way to develop\test new tech is through motorsport. Jaguar and Audi are in Formula E with factory teams, Porsche and Mercedes will be there soon.


GV27
2390 posts

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  #2271848 8-Jul-2019 14:04
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tripper1000:

 

But when it come to the Electric drive chain and batteries, everyone is starting from scratch and Tesla clearly has a 10 year head start on the pack. The others will catch up but when guys like VW are just starting out and others haven't even started yet, 10+ years it s a huge head start.

 

 

"Haven't even started yet" VW have been selling an E-Golf and E-Up for literally years but okay. 


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2271852 8-Jul-2019 14:11
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GV27:

 

tripper1000:

 

But when it come to the Electric drive chain and batteries, everyone is starting from scratch and Tesla clearly has a 10 year head start on the pack. The others will catch up but when guys like VW are just starting out and others haven't even started yet, 10+ years it s a huge head start.

 

 

"Haven't even started yet" VW have been selling an E-Golf and E-Up for literally years but okay. 

 

 

VW gets the batteries for those from Samsung.  They're also terrible value for money.


frankv
3939 posts

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  #2271856 8-Jul-2019 14:23
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Obraik:

 

I'm not talking about features in the car but actual engineering. If the big guys are always playing catch up to what Tesla is doing then they're going to have problems.  I have more hope in other startups like Rivian than I do with the incumbent.

 

 

Conversely, Tesla is struggling to play catch up with the big guys in terms of large-scale manufacturing, distribution, etc.

 

If Tesla really is 10 years ahead, it would make sense for one of the big guys to merge with Tesla.

 

 


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2271869 8-Jul-2019 14:32
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frankv:

 

Obraik:

 

I'm not talking about features in the car but actual engineering. If the big guys are always playing catch up to what Tesla is doing then they're going to have problems.  I have more hope in other startups like Rivian than I do with the incumbent.

 

 

Conversely, Tesla is struggling to play catch up with the big guys in terms of large-scale manufacturing, distribution, etc.

 

If Tesla really is 10 years ahead, it would make sense for one of the big guys to merge with Tesla.

 

 

 

 

I don't think Tesla want to be taken over by one of the incumbents.  Part of their whole thing is they started as an EV company and that's all they make - they're not tarnished with the history of making ICE vehicles.  A lot of their fanbase/customerbase comes from that. 

 

Tesla isn't actually doing too badly when it comes to EV large-scale manufacturing.  No other manufacture is making as many EVs as Tesla.


tdgeek
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  #2271874 8-Jul-2019 14:43
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tripper1000:

 

Tesla is arguable behind in the car body manufacturing field. (Other people have been doing it for 100 years). Primarily this is due to them starting with a blank sheet of paper and little experience.  This is a good thing and a curse. Parts of their bodies have been poorly designed (eg the door handles) and other parts have been "over engineered" leading to avoidable expense, but being different to "normal" conventions has lead to better safety. The Model 3 is the "safest" car ever tested in North America.

 

But when it come to the Electric drive chain and batteries, everyone is starting from scratch and Tesla clearly has a 10 year head start on the pack. The others will catch up but when guys like VW are just starting out and others haven't even started yet, 10+ years it s a huge head start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Leaf has been out for 9 years. Add to that the development phase. Tesla started selling in 2012. The others we all know, have been in development, they having the advantage of jumping on the established tech. The benefit of letting others jump in first means fewer sales, now, but sales now are already low. When Ev's are ready for prime time, you can pick any manufacturer

 

I dont see 10+ years here. What I do see is in a few short years we will go back to buying based on looks as there will be little between them


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