EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#2272407 9-Jul-2019 14:23

GV27:

wellygary:

It wouldn't apply,

The proposal is to make the point of application at the NZ "point of purchase" , either by the dealer or the importer.....

With a private import there is no NZ based purchase, you are purchasing it from a seller overseas...

Tres unhelpful. Waiving GST would have been far more useful.

Just applying it at first registration would have been more useful. Then it applies no matter how the car arrives in the country.

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#2272412 9-Jul-2019 14:32

SaltyNZ:

GV27:

wellygary:

It wouldn't apply,

The proposal is to make the point of application at the NZ "point of purchase" , either by the dealer or the importer.....

With a private import there is no NZ based purchase, you are purchasing it from a seller overseas...

Tres unhelpful. Waiving GST would have been far more useful.

Just applying it at first registration would have been more useful. Then it applies no matter how the car arrives in the country.

Its supposed to be taxpayer neutral. Probably easier to keep GST out of it and simplify the discount and collections. What happens when collections fade? I assume they tell everyone that as taxable ICE's have dropped off the market, job done?

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#2272421 9-Jul-2019 14:53

tdgeek:

Its supposed to be taxpayer neutral. Probably easier to keep GST out of it and simplify the discount and collections. What happens when collections fade? I assume they tell everyone that as taxable ICE's have dropped off the market, job done?

Yeah I think that's pretty much the plan. Once EVs have reached price parity with ICE cars, gradually remove the subsidy. (But keep the fee for ICE, IMHO, and use it to pay for more fast charging stations).

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#2272424 9-Jul-2019 15:01

Alternatively could expand the range of taxable ICEs as by then there may be EVs to fulfil currently unmet requirements e.g. heavy trucks

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#2272537 9-Jul-2019 17:31

SaltyNZ:

tdgeek:

Its supposed to be taxpayer neutral. Probably easier to keep GST out of it and simplify the discount and collections. What happens when collections fade? I assume they tell everyone that as taxable ICE's have dropped off the market, job done?

Yeah I think that's pretty much the plan. Once EVs have reached price parity with ICE cars, gradually remove the subsidy. (But keep the fee for ICE, IMHO, and use it to pay for more fast charging stations).

I cant see price parity for a long while. They need to recover R+D, but if they are smart and they have production capacity, they can stretch out R+D recovery per unit to boost sales. Thats governed by what they can produce. As Paul below mentioned, if EV capability exists in NZ for any given car capability, its sensible to punitively tax it. I.e. if you want a 3 litre 5 door and there is an EV, tax the ICE to support the EV. We are a way off that yet

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#2272651 9-Jul-2019 21:41

The removal of the RUC exemption for EVs is ridiculous. Charges for a 2-axle vehicle under 3500kg are $68/1000km as of 2018. Fuel taxes are 66.4845c or 76.4845c/L (Auckland). That means that a still-polluting Prius Prime driven in Auckland will pay about $33.65 / 1000km at the stated economy of 4.4L/100km.

That's right: the fossil-fuel-burning car will pay less than half the tax of the clean EV. The cheaper tax on the Prius will overtake the slightly larger sticker subsidy on the EV after less than 18,000km. And that's in Auckland; the gap will close more quickly elsewhere without the 10c regional tax.

No wonder Toyota are expressing enthusiastic support for the proposal.

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empacher48

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#2272658 9-Jul-2019 22:01

SaltyNZ:
The removal of the RUC exemption for EVs is ridiculous. Charges for a 2-axle vehicle under 3500kg are $68/1000km as of 2018. Fuel taxes are 66.4845c or 76.4845c/L (Auckland). That means that a still-polluting Prius Prime driven in Auckland will pay about $33.65 / 1000km at the stated economy of 4.4L/100km.

That's right: the fossil-fuel-burning car will pay less than half the tax of the clean EV. The cheaper tax on the Prius will overtake the slightly larger sticker subsidy on the EV after less than 18,000km. And that's in Auckland; the gap will close more quickly elsewhere without the 10c regional tax.

No wonder Toyota are expressing enthusiastic support for the proposal.

You’ll find the RUC went up to $72/1000km on the 1st July. If you don’t pay RUC, how do we pay for the roads when the whole fleet goes electric?

If you’ve been thinking that you’ll never have to pay RUC with an electric car, I’d consider you quite naïf. Hence the reason the car I’m buying next month is pure petrol. The economics of buying a new leaf vs a new petrol car the same size don’t stack up yet. In 4 years when the car has done 120,000km it’ll be replaced and once again I’ll compare pure EV vs petrol vs diesel again.

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#2272731 10-Jul-2019 07:15

Per a suggestion, I started a new thread called Importing cleaner cars discounts to New Zealand in December 2021.

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumId=184&topicId=251746

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#2272739 10-Jul-2019 07:43

empacher48:

You’ll find the RUC went up to $72/1000km on the 1st July. If you don’t pay RUC, how do we pay for the roads when the whole fleet goes electric?

If you’ve been thinking that you’ll never have to pay RUC with an electric car, I’d consider you quite naïf. Hence the reason the car I’m buying next month is pure petrol. The economics of buying a new leaf vs a new petrol car the same size don’t stack up yet. In 4 years when the car has done 120,000km it’ll be replaced and once again I’ll compare pure EV vs petrol vs diesel again.

I'm not opposed to paying taxes; otherwise I would've voted National. I'm saying that with RUC structured that way it sends exactly the opposite message to what the government says that it wants. The tax structure encourages the use of fossil fuel burning vehicles. And if the RUC went up by $4 that just makes it worse.

The taxes should work out equal at worst - a Leaf doesn't tear up the roads any worse than a Prius - and should be biased in favour of the EV due to the zero emission. In fact it is heavily biased in favour of the ICE.

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#2272745 10-Jul-2019 07:56

SaltyNZ:

empacher48:

You’ll find the RUC went up to $72/1000km on the 1st July. If you don’t pay RUC, how do we pay for the roads when the whole fleet goes electric?

If you’ve been thinking that you’ll never have to pay RUC with an electric car, I’d consider you quite naïf. Hence the reason the car I’m buying next month is pure petrol. The economics of buying a new leaf vs a new petrol car the same size don’t stack up yet. In 4 years when the car has done 120,000km it’ll be replaced and once again I’ll compare pure EV vs petrol vs diesel again.

I'm not opposed to paying taxes; otherwise I would've voted National. I'm saying that with RUC structured that way it sends exactly the opposite message to what the government says that it wants. The tax structure encourages the use of fossil fuel burning vehicles. And if the RUC went up by $4 that just makes it worse.

The taxes should work out equal at worst - a Leaf doesn't tear up the roads any worse than a Prius - and should be biased in favour of the EV due to the zero emission. In fact it is heavily biased in favour of the ICE.

Fully agree. I havent read the full doc. Does it say the RUC will just end, or might it mean that the EV RUC will just end, and allow for an adjustment for hybrids?

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#2272746 10-Jul-2019 07:58

SaltyNZ:

The removal of the RUC exemption for EVs is ridiculous. Charges for a 2-axle vehicle under 3500kg are $68/1000km as of 2018. Fuel taxes are 66.4845c or 76.4845c/L (Auckland). That means that a still-polluting Prius Prime driven in Auckland will pay about $33.65 / 1000km at the stated economy of 4.4L/100km.

That's right: the fossil-fuel-burning car will pay less than half the tax of the clean EV. The cheaper tax on the Prius will overtake the slightly larger sticker subsidy on the EV after less than 18,000km. And that's in Auckland; the gap will close more quickly elsewhere without the 10c regional tax.

No wonder Toyota are expressing enthusiastic support for the proposal.

What it shows is how badly RUC works for small cars, ( which perversely has been one of the reasons that huge growth in small diesels that swept through Europe over the last 20 years never happened- and is now a huge problem,)

I can seriously see then introducing a new lightweight RUC band , with a cheaper rate

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#2272747 10-Jul-2019 07:59

tdgeek:

Fully agree. I havent read the full doc. Does it say the RUC will just end, or might it mean that the EV RUC will just end, and allow for an adjustment for hybrids?

At the moment it just says it ends, to be replaced by the up-front subsidy. I assume if they did intend to adjust it, it would say so in the document. The exact wording is:

The Clean Car Discount will be timed to replace the exemption from road user charges that applies to electric vehicles. For light vehicles the exemption applies until December 2021, or until they make up 2 percent of the light vehicle fleet.

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empacher48

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#2272748 10-Jul-2019 07:59

SaltyNZ:
The taxes should work out equal at worst - a Leaf doesn't tear up the roads any worse than a Prius - and should be biased in favour of the EV due to the zero emission. In fact it is heavily biased in favour of the ICE.

Welcome to the world I have been in for the last 15 years driving small European diesel hatchbacks. Paying the same RUC as people driving Rangers, Colorado’s and Hiluxes. Taxed the same as those vehicles. Although up until about 4 years ago it was cheaper to run the diesel vs the petrol in the same model. But it was always rejected that a second tier of RUC for smaller vehicles should be implemented.

Since then petrol engines became more efficient, RUC went up and until this year it was very similar in direct running costs. This year though, it has now become cheaper to run the petrol version.

Take in the purchase price of an EV compared with comparable petrol and it will take a very long time for the savings to make up for the purchase cost.

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#2272749 10-Jul-2019 08:07

How will they measure RUC for EV's? Buy mileage at the Post Office? How would they measure the electrical mileage on a hybrid? That's probably the key and more complex question

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#2272767 10-Jul-2019 09:07

tdgeek:

How will they measure RUC for EV's? Buy mileage at the Post Office? How would they measure the electrical mileage on a hybrid? That's probably the key and more complex question

They can probably have that reported when the WOF is done for EVs.

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