EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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642 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2279764 19-Jul-2019 19:07

Obraik:

wsnz:

The side effect of course, is to make housing even more unaffordable. We also have a group pushing for all new houses to have rainwater tanks (to which councils will have a field day charging annual inspection fees) made mandatory, along with solar panels for roofs etc.

A charger isn't that expensive. It's also cheaper and easier to put the 32A cabling in while the house is being built rather than having to do it post-build.

According to the electrical dealer I have an account with, the outlet, 32A cable, RSD, breaker, fittings, plus a small amount for labour adds up to several hundred more for the cost of the build. If it's made compulsory, add a small increase to the electrical certificate cost as well. That is now mounting up.

What purpose would compulsory chargers for all houses serve? Cars can be charged using the existing 10-15A electrical infrastructure in the house, and there are numerous fast-chargers available dotted around our cities and countryside.

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#2279770 19-Jul-2019 19:22

wsnz:

Obraik:

wsnz:

The side effect of course, is to make housing even more unaffordable. We also have a group pushing for all new houses to have rainwater tanks (to which councils will have a field day charging annual inspection fees) made mandatory, along with solar panels for roofs etc.

A charger isn't that expensive. It's also cheaper and easier to put the 32A cabling in while the house is being built rather than having to do it post-build.

According to the electrical dealer I have an account with, the outlet, 32A cable, RSD, breaker, fittings, plus a small amount for labour adds up to several hundred more for the cost of the build. If it's made compulsory, add a small increase to the electrical certificate cost as well. That is now mounting up.

What purpose would compulsory chargers for all houses serve? Cars can be charged using the existing 10-15A electrical infrastructure in the house, and there are numerous fast-chargers available dotted around our cities and countryside.

Makes sense. If you want it, get it, dont add that extra cost for everyone else that wont be using it.

If you use 14kW per 100km, it doesn't seem a big issue. I believe that slower charging maximises battery life.

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#2279810 19-Jul-2019 19:29

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tripper1000

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#2281581 22-Jul-2019 15:58

wsnz:

Obraik:

wsnz: The side effect of course, is to make housing even more unaffordable. We also have a group pushing for all new houses to have rainwater tanks (to which councils will have a field day charging annual inspection fees) made mandatory, along with solar panels for roofs etc.

A charger isn't that expensive. It's also cheaper and easier to put the 32A cabling in while the house is being built rather than having to do it post-build.

According to the electrical dealer I have an account with, the outlet, 32A cable, RSD, breaker, fittings, plus a small amount for labour adds up to several hundred more for the cost of the build. If it's made compulsory, add a small increase to the electrical certificate cost as well. That is now mounting up.

What purpose would compulsory chargers for all houses serve? Cars can be charged using the existing 10-15A electrical infrastructure in the house, and there are numerous fast-chargers available dotted around our cities and countryside.

Classic - Penny wise, pound foolish.

People love to use flimsy/false financial reasons to justify an allergy to good design.

It was exactly the same fibre - it adds to the cost of a new build and not everyone wants it, yada yada yada, but fast forward 5 years and everyone expects it. The difference is that fibre has been around long enough now that even those with zero foresight can see it is the new normal.

Laws and building codes are there to stop people from doing things wrong.

Here is what worksafe has to say about charging from the 3 pin plug and why you might want a dedicated charge outlet. including some of hazards, pitfalls and precautions when charging from 3 pin plugs.

Numerous fast chargers dotted around our cities is 1) not correct and 2) no justification for not having a charger at home. A parallel argument would be that you don't need a phone charger at home.

wsnz

642 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2281685 22-Jul-2019 19:26

tripper1000:

Classic - Penny wise, pound foolish.

People love to use flimsy/false financial reasons to justify an allergy to good design.

It was exactly the same fibre - it adds to the cost of a new build and not everyone wants it, yada yada yada, but fast forward 5 years and everyone expects it. The difference is that fibre has been around long enough now that even those with zero foresight can see it is the new normal.

Laws and building codes are there to stop people from doing things wrong.

Here is what worksafe has to say about charging from the 3 pin plug and why you might want a dedicated charge outlet. including some of hazards, pitfalls and precautions when charging from 3 pin plugs.

Numerous fast chargers dotted around our cities is 1) not correct and 2) no justification for not having a charger at home. A parallel argument would be that you don't need a phone charger at home.

Unfortunately, your comparison isn’t valid. Fibre to the premises doesn’t add appreciable cost to the design of the house, but dedicated 32A charging does. Presumably you also support whatever upgrades you believe are required to enable fibre service in a home, to also be made compulsory for all new dwellings?

As for the Worksafe documents, there is nothing contained within that precludes charging from a standard 10A/15A outlet. Basic safety precautions are outlined that apply equally to (for example) avoid powering a heater from a multibox or an extension cord.

Fast charges are most certainly available throughout the country; service stations, shopping malls, dedicated carparks, hotels, businesses, and through plug sharing services in residential areas.

Standard 15A EV charging will suffice for most people, just as <3A phone chargers suffice for most. For those that wish to either upgrade or incorporate a 32A charger as part of a new build, then they may do so at their leisure.

What is the justification for fast chargers to be installed in-home on a compulsory basis?

Delphinus

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Ultimate Geek

#2281751 22-Jul-2019 19:48

wsnz:

tripper1000:

It was exactly the same fibre - it adds to the cost of a new build and not everyone wants it, yada yada yada, but fast forward 5 years and everyone expects it. The difference is that fibre has been around long enough now that even those with zero foresight can see it is the new normal.

Unfortunately, your comparison isn’t valid. Fibre to the premises doesn’t add appreciable cost to the design of the house, but dedicated 32A charging does. Presumably you also support whatever upgrades you believe are required to enable fibre service in a home, to also be made compulsory for all new dwellings?

I cannot believe the number of new houses that are built without any network cabling in place. They have Cat5e (if you're lucky) to a couple of phone jackpoints, but zero data cabling, in multiple buildings I've looked at which were built in the last decade.

wsnz

642 posts

Ultimate Geek

#2281830 22-Jul-2019 21:42

Delphinus:

I cannot believe the number of new houses that are built without any network cabling in place. They have Cat5e (if you're lucky) to a couple of phone jackpoints, but zero data cabling, in multiple buildings I've looked at which were built in the last decade.

Having no network cabling - Ideal? No, however installation of the fibre CPE and a quality 802.11ac (or future standard) Wi-Fi AP with performance tuned radios, will suffice for a large percentage of the population.

Our house was extensively cabled, but being in the IT industry, there was a business (and geekery) case for this type of investment, but for others there simply isn’t, as alternative solutions suit well. For high end builds, then I would be very weary of a lack of data cabling as that might signal that cost cutting measures have been applied in numerous places.

I’d certainly recommend installing network cabling in a new build, but just that, recommend.

Scott3

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#2281854 22-Jul-2019 23:40

wsnz:

Unfortunately, your comparison isn’t valid. Fibre to the premises doesn’t add appreciable cost to the design of the house, but dedicated 32A charging does. Presumably you also support whatever upgrades you believe are required to enable fibre service in a home, to also be made compulsory for all new dwellings?

As for the Worksafe documents, there is nothing contained within that precludes charging from a standard 10A/15A outlet. Basic safety precautions are outlined that apply equally to (for example) avoid powering a heater from a multibox or an extension cord.

Fast charges are most certainly available throughout the country; service stations, shopping malls, dedicated carparks, hotels, businesses, and through plug sharing services in residential areas.

Standard 15A EV charging will suffice for most people, just as <3A phone chargers suffice for most. For those that wish to either upgrade or incorporate a 32A charger as part of a new build, then they may do so at their leisure.

What is the justification for fast chargers to be installed in-home on a compulsory basis?

Regarding 15 A (AS/NZS 3112) outlets, despite being rated for 15A continuous draw, sadly aren't up for that duty in the real world. A bunch of early adopters ended up having close calls resulting in melted / blackened plugs & sockets (they were drawing a decent amount under 15A too). From this experience, the "blue caravan" 16A IEC 60309-2 plug & socket became the socket of choice where a low cost socket with current capability exceeding that of a standard domestic socket is required.

For a while the 15A socket was going to be the required socket for new build garages for EV charging. Thankfully that is gone.

Regarding 10A charging, Note that, without plug temperature monitoring, work-safe regulations only allow an 8A charge current. At this current, charge time for current generation EV's are getting problematically long. For example the 64kWh Hyundai Kona quotes a 43 Hr charging time with such a connection. It appears likely that battery capacities will keep increasing Charging a top spec 180kWh Rivian R1T would take 109 hours (at 90% charging efficiency). I am aware that you only need to charge enough to cover your range for the next day, but it is highly disable to be able to fit your charging needs in the off peak window of 11pm - 6am.

I had an i3 REX for a while and used a domestic socket in my garage. It worked OK, but kinda sucked. Firstly it couldn't fully charge even the tiny 22kWh battery overnight at 8A. Secondly I would trip the breaker if I ran the dryer at the same time as the electric car charger.

Current work-safe guidelines are here: https://worksafe.govt.nz/dmsdocument/5169-electric-vehicle-charging-safety-guidelines-2nd-edition

The term "fast charger" for electric vehicles generally applies to DC chargers at 50kW of greater.

I'm not a fan of having EVSE's installed compulsory in new builds, but support the following requirements: Bunch of free bays in main circuit board. Choice of the following from the circuit board to each car parking location (terminated under a blank face-plate), either in the garage, or outdoor parking area:

wiring to support 32A single phase
wiring to support 16A three phase
Empty conduit

Wiring itself it cheap, but retrofitting it is hard.

Type B RCD's, and EVSE's are currently kinda expensive, plus we don't know what our needs will be in the future on this front. In a household with multiple EV's, EVSE's which limit their combined max load may be required, there is also a decent chance that some kind of smart EVSE, that allows your electricity provider to shed some of your ev charging if the network is under strain will be incentive's.

With regards to the needs to require the infrastructure be put in place, there are a few reasons that this is desirable, even if it pushes up the cost of housing:

Developers will often build to minimum specs, and unless the house is brought off the plan's, the buyer cannot influence the specs. Buyers typically are more interested in outer factors than wiring.
A decent chunk of our population rents housing. Much harder for a renter to justify asking for wiring to be added when they could be moving out in a year.
Substantial reduction in the barrier to uptake of electric vehicles.
Safer than using domestic sockets for charging Type B RCD, no live pins, rather for thousand's of cycle, power automatically cut to protect plugs & sockets from arcing if disconnected under load.

A key downside is that car manufactures have yet to unify on a position on the car for the charge port.

SaltyNZ

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#2281876 23-Jul-2019 07:05

Scott3:

At this current, charge time for current generation EV's are getting problematically long. For example the 64kWh Hyundai Kona quotes a 43 Hr charging time with such a connection.

You're not wrong, but I would also point out that you typically don't drive the entire range of a Kona every day. I have one of the longer commutes - 110km round trip daily - and I can normally comfortably manage that with an 8A charger. Some days if I get home late the car won't be fully charged in the morning but then again, if I had a Kona with a 400km range then 'not fully charged the next morning' would not be a problem.

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paulchinnz

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#2281922 23-Jul-2019 08:07

@saltyNZ that's why scott3 stated "I am aware that you only need to charge enough to cover your range for the next day".

Aside: anyone know an electrician familiar with these EV issues in Christchurch? Wondering if my garage can charge 2 EVs simultaneously through 3-pin outlets.

SaltyNZ

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#2281940 23-Jul-2019 09:04

paulchinnz:

@saltyNZ that's why scott3 stated "I am aware that you only need to charge enough to cover your range for the next day".

Fair enough. :-)

Aside: anyone know an electrician familiar with these EV issues in Christchurch? Wondering if my garage can charge 2 EVs simultaneously through 3-pin outlets.

That's actually why we will be getting some upgrades in our garage - well, that and the fact that we're about renovate the whole house anyway - so that we are prepared for 2 EVs when the time comes.

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Guilliman

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Master Geek

#2281966 23-Jul-2019 09:31

Hmm. I've been charging off a power strip connected to a wall socket in the garage [running the cable under the door because said garage is for now mostly storage], I have an RCD in-between. There is also a chest freezer sharing the strip. In over a year I haven't noticed any tripping or any other issues. I do overnight top-up charges 6 days a week from, on average, 70% back up to 100%. I guess this isn't ideal but we rent so I don't think I have any other options for at home charging.

Geektastic

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#2281968 23-Jul-2019 09:36

tripper1000:
wsnz:

Obraik:

wsnz: The side effect of course, is to make housing even more unaffordable. We also have a group pushing for all new houses to have rainwater tanks (to which councils will have a field day charging annual inspection fees) made mandatory, along with solar panels for roofs etc.

A charger isn't that expensive. It's also cheaper and easier to put the 32A cabling in while the house is being built rather than having to do it post-build.

According to the electrical dealer I have an account with, the outlet, 32A cable, RSD, breaker, fittings, plus a small amount for labour adds up to several hundred more for the cost of the build. If it's made compulsory, add a small increase to the electrical certificate cost as well. That is now mounting up.

What purpose would compulsory chargers for all houses serve? Cars can be charged using the existing 10-15A electrical infrastructure in the house, and there are numerous fast-chargers available dotted around our cities and countryside.

Classic - Penny wise, pound foolish.

People love to use flimsy/false financial reasons to justify an allergy to good design.

It was exactly the same fibre - it adds to the cost of a new build and not everyone wants it, yada yada yada, but fast forward 5 years and everyone expects it. The difference is that fibre has been around long enough now that even those with zero foresight can see it is the new normal.

Laws and building codes are there to stop people from doing things wrong.

Here is what worksafe has to say about charging from the 3 pin plug and why you might want a dedicated charge outlet. including some of hazards, pitfalls and precautions when charging from 3 pin plugs.

Numerous fast chargers dotted around our cities is 1) not correct and 2) no justification for not having a charger at home. A parallel argument would be that you don't need a phone charger at home.

Not everyone in New Zealand lives in cities. Out here, fibre is something off a sheep's back and an EV charger would be as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

Obraik

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#2281969 23-Jul-2019 09:38

Guilliman: Hmm. I've been charging off a power strip connected to a wall socket in the garage [running the cable under the door because said garage is for now mostly storage], I have an RCD in-between. There is also a chest freezer sharing the strip. In over a year I haven't noticed any tripping or any other issues. I do overnight top-up charges 6 days a week from, on average, 70% back up to 100%. I guess this isn't ideal but we rent so I don't think I have any other options for at home charging.

It depends on what your landlord is like I guess. I'm currently renting however my landlord was ok with us adding a 32A socket in the garage if we paid for it. In my case, the power board for the house is in the garage so it was pretty cheap (around $90) to have the socket put in underneath it.

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#2282087 23-Jul-2019 10:54

Geektastic:

Not everyone in New Zealand lives in cities. Out here, fibre is something off a sheep's back and an EV charger would be as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

Fortunately both EV ranges and capabilities are rapidly improving. But speaking as someone who needs his sheep sheared at the moment and also drives an EV every day, I'd really like to get fibre at some point in the next 50 years.

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