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DS248
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  #2290029 5-Aug-2019 09:23
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For paywall free https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/bgyte9/germanys_dirty_green_cars/#thing_t1_elokblk

But read the comments and links therein.

SaltyNZ
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  #2290036 5-Aug-2019 09:35
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DS248: For paywall free https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/bgyte9/germanys_dirty_green_cars/#thing_t1_elokblk

But read the comments and links therein.

 

 

 

Ta. Definitely some things to note there, for example:

 

 

 

 

The main Tesla problem—and subject of a long-running debate—concerns the CO2 emitted to manufacture the battery. The IFO report pegs this at between 73 and 98 grams per kilometer, assuming a 10-year battery life at 15,000 kilometers of driving per year.

 

 

 

 

I do about 43,000km/year in my EV with a battery half the size of the smallest Tesla Model 3 so I think my battery CO2 contribution is probably considerably less than their estimate, and that's without going into any of the other objections the articles linked in the Reddit comments consider.





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


 
 
 
 


kingdragonfly
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  #2290042 5-Aug-2019 10:01
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This article fails to take into account what happens when the battery are no longer in the car.

Also EV batteries don't stop working suddenly, but slowly hold less charge.

Jay Leno's 1909 Baker Electric still operates on its original Edison cells.

For old EV batteries, they can be used in various systems, such as powerwalls at home, or even on a commercial level smart-grids and load-leveling.

Great for solar and wind usage.

Can't do that with an old diesel engine.

tdgeek
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  #2290124 5-Aug-2019 11:33
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Delphinus:

 

tdgeek:

 

Thats good, as is anything else electric, but as these things come on stream they are using power that as yet, we dont generate. We can't order more rain. We cant build, another hydro next week, or add 600 wind turbines the week after. I guess we will just burn more FF to make up the extra for these green ideas?

 

 

From what I read there was only a single tug purchased, and NZ's power generation doesn't run at 100% capacity 100% of the time? Yes additional loads on the grid (new houses, new businesses, new EV's) require more generation. That is life. You can also build more generation capacity as demand increases. That is also how the world works. 

 

Or are you suggesting we are never going to build more wind turbines, or add more solar? And should never change anything that might increase grid demand (no new houses, no new businesses, no EV's, no anything?). 

 

 

Off course not. We use around 15% FF given that renewables are circa 85%. Im not aware of new hydro which is what we want, and while there are already many consented generation builds, will they be built? Most of those are bits and pieces. While we don't run at 100% capacity for 100% of the time, I doubt we could increase the capacity time a great as we will then run low on water levels. So what we could generate now is probably not real world, as we will run out of fuel (water)


tdgeek
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  #2290125 5-Aug-2019 11:35
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Delphinus:

 

"So while we pay more up front, over the life of the tug we'll save around $12 million in operating costs, making our electric tug cheaper in the long term," he said.

 

"The life of the tug is around 25 years. By going electric now, we save 25 years of diesel pollution.

 

"In 2016 we set the goal of being zero emission by 2040 because we recognise that urgent action is needed on climate change. However, setting that goal created a tough challenge," Gibson said.

 

 

 

The port's current 70 tonne bollard pull tug Hauraki uses about 120 litres of diesel an hour. In 2019 it consumed 190,926 litres of diesel.

 

Saves money and reduces emissions. Good on them. 

 

 

Thats good, as is anything else electric, but as these things come on stream they are using power that as yet, we dont generate. We can't order more rain. We cant build, another hydro next week, or add 600 wind turbines the week after. I guess we will just burn more FF to make up the extra for these green ideas?

 

 

I'd love to see your workings that led you to the conclusion that we don't have the capacity to generate enough power to charge this tug boat.

 

 

You need to spend a bit more time reading what was posted

 

Thats good, as is anything else electric, but as these things come on stream  does not mean 'just this tug boat"

 

 


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2290135 5-Aug-2019 11:51
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tdgeek:

 

Off course not. We use around 15% FF given that renewables are circa 85%. Im not aware of new hydro which is what we want, and while there are already many consented generation builds, will they be built? Most of those are bits and pieces. While we don't run at 100% capacity for 100% of the time, I doubt we could increase the capacity time a great as we will then run low on water levels. So what we could generate now is probably not real world, as we will run out of fuel (water)

 

 

I guess you've forgotten about this list then?


Obraik
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  #2290137 5-Aug-2019 12:01
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SaltyNZ:

 

DS248: For paywall free https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/bgyte9/germanys_dirty_green_cars/#thing_t1_elokblk

But read the comments and links therein.

 

 

 

Ta. Definitely some things to note there, for example:

 

 

 

 

The main Tesla problem—and subject of a long-running debate—concerns the CO2 emitted to manufacture the battery. The IFO report pegs this at between 73 and 98 grams per kilometer, assuming a 10-year battery life at 15,000 kilometers of driving per year.

 

 

 

 

I do about 43,000km/year in my EV with a battery half the size of the smallest Tesla Model 3 so I think my battery CO2 contribution is probably considerably less than their estimate, and that's without going into any of the other objections the articles linked in the Reddit comments consider.

 

 

Yeah, the overall issue with the "research" presented is that they've chosen rather pessimistic figures for EVs and very optimistic figures for diesels. In reality, there are many examples of Model S' in Europe and the US that have done 400,000km+ on a single battery pack. It assumes after 150,000km the battery pack is no longer viable and must be disposed of. It ignores that even when the batteries are finished being used in a EV that they're still perfectly usable in a power storage role.


 
 
 
 


SaltyNZ
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  #2290139 5-Aug-2019 12:07
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Obraik:

 

I guess you've forgotten about this list then?

 

 

 

 

Interestingly that's about 1000MW of FF vs. 5000MW of renewables which is close to our current mix.





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


tdgeek
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  #2290142 5-Aug-2019 12:19
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Off course not. We use around 15% FF given that renewables are circa 85%. Im not aware of new hydro which is what we want, and while there are already many consented generation builds, will they be built? Most of those are bits and pieces. While we don't run at 100% capacity for 100% of the time, I doubt we could increase the capacity time a great as we will then run low on water levels. So what we could generate now is probably not real world, as we will run out of fuel (water)

 

 

I guess you've forgotten about this list then?

 

 

Obviously not when I mentioned   already many consented generation builds


Jeeves
302 posts

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  #2290166 5-Aug-2019 13:35
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tdgeek:

 

Delphinus:

 

tdgeek:

 

Thats good, as is anything else electric, but as these things come on stream they are using power that as yet, we dont generate. We can't order more rain. We cant build, another hydro next week, or add 600 wind turbines the week after. I guess we will just burn more FF to make up the extra for these green ideas?

 

 

From what I read there was only a single tug purchased, and NZ's power generation doesn't run at 100% capacity 100% of the time? Yes additional loads on the grid (new houses, new businesses, new EV's) require more generation. That is life. You can also build more generation capacity as demand increases. That is also how the world works. 

 

Or are you suggesting we are never going to build more wind turbines, or add more solar? And should never change anything that might increase grid demand (no new houses, no new businesses, no EV's, no anything?). 

 

 

Off course not. We use around 15% FF given that renewables are circa 85%. Im not aware of new hydro which is what we want, and while there are already many consented generation builds, will they be built? Most of those are bits and pieces. While we don't run at 100% capacity for 100% of the time, I doubt we could increase the capacity time a great as we will then run low on water levels. So what we could generate now is probably not real world, as we will run out of fuel (water)

 

 

 

 

The oil burners most come online during times of peak capacity. This is typically between 6-8am and 5pm-10pm. 

 

Most EV owners charge overnight, where there is oodles of available capacity. Dinosaur burners typically are the first to be taken offline when demand drops. Therefore, the energy consumed by EV's vs general energy consumed, at least in NZ, is typically more green than brown.

 

 

 

In saying that, I can foresee a future where demand starts outstripping supply. In that case it wouldn't be unexpected if there are mandates restricting EV charging to night time or other programs such as greater push to at home solar and wind to bring the energy source closer to the consumer.

 

 


WyleECoyoteNZ
796 posts

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  #2290168 5-Aug-2019 13:38
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Delphinus:

 

"So while we pay more up front, over the life of the tug we'll save around $12 million in operating costs, making our electric tug cheaper in the long term," he said.

 

"The life of the tug is around 25 years. By going electric now, we save 25 years of diesel pollution.

 

"In 2016 we set the goal of being zero emission by 2040 because we recognise that urgent action is needed on climate change. However, setting that goal created a tough challenge," Gibson said.

 

 

 

The port's current 70 tonne bollard pull tug Hauraki uses about 120 litres of diesel an hour. In 2019 it consumed 190,926 litres of diesel.

 

Saves money and reduces emissions. Good on them. 

 

 

Thats good, as is anything else electric, but as these things come on stream they are using power that as yet, we dont generate. We can't order more rain. We cant build, another hydro next week, or add 600 wind turbines the week after. I guess we will just burn more FF to make up the extra for these green ideas?

 

 

I'd love to see your workings that led you to the conclusion that we don't have the capacity to generate enough power to charge this tug boat.

 

 

You need to spend a bit more time reading what was posted

 

Thats good, as is anything else electric, but as these things come on stream  does not mean 'just this tug boat"

 

 

 

 

TDGeek has a point.

 

The majority of NZ's power is coming from Green sources (Hydro \ geothermal \ wind), with a lot of that coming from the South Island hydro lakes

 

https://www.transpower.co.nz/power-system-live-data

 

And as for the consented list, although some in the list are consented, that's not the full story, e.g. Wairau Hyrdo is consented, but according to Wikipedia is on hold. Looking at the consented list, a lot more are on hold as well.

 

IMO with more and more EV's and electric powered vehicles\machinery\transport coming along, and the South Island hydro lakes (which rely on the snow melt) providing a lot of the power, it's something that's going to become an issue sooner or later.


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2290169 5-Aug-2019 13:41
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

TDGeek has a point.

 

The majority of NZ's power is coming from Green sources (Hydro \ geothermal \ wind), with a lot of that coming from the South Island hydro lakes

 

https://www.transpower.co.nz/power-system-live-data

 

And as for the consented list, although some in the list are consented, that's not the full story, e.g. Wairau Hyrdo is consented, but according to Wikipedia is on hold. Looking at the consented list, a lot more are on hold as well.

 

IMO with more and more EV's and electric powered vehicles\machinery\transport coming along, and the South Island hydro lakes (which rely on the snow melt) providing a lot of the power, it's something that's going to become an issue sooner or later.

 

 

Sure, if they do nothing and growth happens there will be issues. However, just last week the government was talking about bringing online new wind farms over the next few years to add capacity to the grid.


tdgeek
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  #2290181 5-Aug-2019 14:06
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Jeeves:

 

The oil burners most come online during times of peak capacity. This is typically between 6-8am and 5pm-10pm. 

 

Most EV owners charge overnight, where there is oodles of available capacity. Dinosaur burners typically are the first to be taken offline when demand drops. Therefore, the energy consumed by EV's vs general energy consumed, at least in NZ, is typically more green than brown.

 

 

 

In saying that, I can foresee a future where demand starts outstripping supply. In that case it wouldn't be unexpected if there are mandates restricting EV charging to night time or other programs such as greater push to at home solar and wind to bring the energy source closer to the consumer.

 

 

 

 

Where is the oodles? If the lakes are full and are being topped up as we drain them, then if thats permanent, that's oodles, but it doesnt work like a that all year

 

My issue is who will build this extra capacity as we need it? We know what Governments are like. They will act when its a problem Private enterprise wants a return now, so they will build when the capacity will all be used

 

Home solar is no good, I raised that here ages ago, its minimal at best, no effect


tdgeek
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  #2290185 5-Aug-2019 14:11
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Obraik:

 

 

 

Sure, if they do nothing and growth happens there will be issues. However, just last week the government was talking about bringing online new wind farms over the next few years to add capacity to the grid.

 

 

Without extra demand,  there are already issues right now. Hot water goes off 4 hours many mornings, we burn FF already. Add new wind farms? Ok, sounds easy if you say it fast. The reality is we are not generating enough now, let alone when we shut down FF generation and add more electrical usage


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2290193 5-Aug-2019 14:33
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tdgeek:

 

Without extra demand,  there are already issues right now. Hot water goes off 4 hours many mornings, we burn FF already. Add new wind farms? Ok, sounds easy if you say it fast. The reality is we are not generating enough now, let alone when we shut down FF generation and add more electrical usage

 

 

Ripple control isn't evidence that we have supply issues.


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