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SaltyNZ
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  #2290195 5-Aug-2019 14:37
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

And as for the consented list, although some in the list are consented, that's not the full story, e.g. Wairau Hyrdo is consented, but according to Wikipedia is on hold. Looking at the consented list, a lot more are on hold as well.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps part of the reason they're on hold is that they are not yet required. I would think that getting consent to build a power plant is not quite the same as getting consent to build a garden shed. Having a consent sorted out years before you need to break ground is good planning.





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tdgeek
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  #2290208 5-Aug-2019 15:00
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Without extra demand,  there are already issues right now. Hot water goes off 4 hours many mornings, we burn FF already. Add new wind farms? Ok, sounds easy if you say it fast. The reality is we are not generating enough now, let alone when we shut down FF generation and add more electrical usage

 

 

Ripple control isn't evidence that we have supply issues.

 

 

Why do we reduce usage then? If we had no supply issues we would have no need to cap usage


 
 
 
 


SaltyNZ
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  #2290211 5-Aug-2019 15:04
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tdgeek:

 

Why do we reduce usage then? If we had no supply issues we would have no need to cap usage

 

 

 

 

Ripple control is not to reduce usage, it's to shift it to off peak because hot water can be stored but electricity cannot.





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wellygary
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  #2290214 5-Aug-2019 15:08
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Without extra demand,  there are already issues right now. Hot water goes off 4 hours many mornings, we burn FF already. Add new wind farms? Ok, sounds easy if you say it fast. The reality is we are not generating enough now, let alone when we shut down FF generation and add more electrical usage

 

 

Ripple control isn't evidence that we have supply issues.

 

 

Why do we reduce usage then? If we had no supply issues we would have no need to cap usage

 

 

Ripple control in NZ is typically run by the Lines companies, not generators. it is used to help smooth demand preventing overbuilding of the supply network (essentially the local distribution network out from the GXP)....


tdgeek
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  #2290224 5-Aug-2019 15:15
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SaltyNZ:

 

tdgeek:

 

Why do we reduce usage then? If we had no supply issues we would have no need to cap usage

 

 

 

 

Ripple control is not to reduce usage, it's to shift it to off peak because hot water can be stored but electricity cannot.

 

 

Electricity can be stored, in a lake. They dont ripple control at any old time to match issues that you stated, so that doesnt make sense. Seems to me we cannot supply the required power, so we don't. Seems that the maximum supply is being approached so off goes the hot water. Lets say I miss out on 6kW of hot water heating, but since 5pm the night before my EV has been charging all night. So they use ripple control but I am now also consuming more, thats got to come from somewhere. Ok, there are bugger all EV's in NZ but in a years time when the subsidy hits, where manufacturers are expecting a sales spike, the number of EV's would probably quadruple quite quickly. At 40kWh each new one equals a winters day usage extra, per owner, per week. Maybe more if the drive a lot of km in that week.


tdgeek
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  #2290227 5-Aug-2019 15:22
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wellygary:

 

tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Without extra demand,  there are already issues right now. Hot water goes off 4 hours many mornings, we burn FF already. Add new wind farms? Ok, sounds easy if you say it fast. The reality is we are not generating enough now, let alone when we shut down FF generation and add more electrical usage

 

 

Ripple control isn't evidence that we have supply issues.

 

 

Why do we reduce usage then? If we had no supply issues we would have no need to cap usage

 

 

Ripple control in NZ is typically run by the Lines companies, not generators. it is used to help smooth demand preventing overbuilding of the supply network (essentially the local distribution network out from the GXP)....

 

 

Cheers for that. Understood. With EV etc building up in the future, you would expect lines companies to bring their local network up to date? Where would that financial cost come from?


Obraik
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  #2290230 5-Aug-2019 15:26
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tdgeek:

 

SaltyNZ:

 

Ripple control is not to reduce usage, it's to shift it to off peak because hot water can be stored but electricity cannot.

 

 

Electricity can be stored, in a lake. They dont ripple control at any old time to match issues that you stated, so that doesnt make sense. Seems to me we cannot supply the required power, so we don't. Seems that the maximum supply is being approached so off goes the hot water. Lets say I miss out on 6kW of hot water heating, but since 5pm the night before my EV has been charging all night. So they use ripple control but I am now also consuming more, thats got to come from somewhere. Ok, there are bugger all EV's in NZ but in a years time when the subsidy hits, where manufacturers are expecting a sales spike, the number of EV's would probably quadruple quite quickly. At 40kWh each new one equals a winters day usage extra, per owner, per week. Maybe more if the drive a lot of km in that week.

 

 

Ripple control absolutely is used to move power usage to off peak. Again, you can view the live usage of power across NZ by going to Transpowers website - as you can see right now we're no where near using our maximum capacity.

 

There's plenty of capacity available at night to cover EV charging for a number of years to come. There's also plenty of projects to expand the power generation capability in the country. What we have now is not all we're ever going to have so arguing that the grid won't cope with X load in a number of years down the road is pointless.


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2290234 5-Aug-2019 15:35
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

SaltyNZ:

 

Ripple control is not to reduce usage, it's to shift it to off peak because hot water can be stored but electricity cannot.

 

 

Electricity can be stored, in a lake. They dont ripple control at any old time to match issues that you stated, so that doesnt make sense. Seems to me we cannot supply the required power, so we don't. Seems that the maximum supply is being approached so off goes the hot water. Lets say I miss out on 6kW of hot water heating, but since 5pm the night before my EV has been charging all night. So they use ripple control but I am now also consuming more, thats got to come from somewhere. Ok, there are bugger all EV's in NZ but in a years time when the subsidy hits, where manufacturers are expecting a sales spike, the number of EV's would probably quadruple quite quickly. At 40kWh each new one equals a winters day usage extra, per owner, per week. Maybe more if the drive a lot of km in that week.

 

 

Ripple control absolutely is used to move power usage to off peak. Again, you can view the live usage of power across NZ by going to Transpowers website - as you can see right now we're no where near using our maximum capacity.

 

There's plenty of capacity available at night to cover EV charging for a number of years to come. There's also plenty of projects to expand the power generation capability in the country. What we have now is not all we're ever going to have so arguing that the grid won't cope with X load in a number of years down the road is pointless.

 

 

Pointless. Ok, so we can use as much power as NZ wants at any time right now? And we need to dump FF? So we can charge all EV's at night as there is no issue for years to come. So are we ordering extra rain for these cars? And we all know there are charging stations galore now, or can these only be used at night? There are plenty of projects, but many are small and local, and not much action happening. What happens when lake levels are a problem? It seems none of this matters? 


Obraik
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  #2290244 5-Aug-2019 15:42
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

Ripple control absolutely is used to move power usage to off peak. Again, you can view the live usage of power across NZ by going to Transpowers website - as you can see right now we're no where near using our maximum capacity.

 

There's plenty of capacity available at night to cover EV charging for a number of years to come. There's also plenty of projects to expand the power generation capability in the country. What we have now is not all we're ever going to have so arguing that the grid won't cope with X load in a number of years down the road is pointless.

 

 

Pointless. Ok, so we can use as much power as NZ wants at any time right now? And we need to dump FF? So we can charge all EV's at night as there is no issue for years to come. So are we ordering extra rain for these cars? And we all know there are charging stations galore now, or can these only be used at night? There are plenty of projects, but many are small and local, and not much action happening. What happens when lake levels are a problem? It seems none of this matters? 

 

 

If you read what I wrote, you'd see that I said it's pointless to argue that the current day grid won't cope with X load in a number of years. You're assuming that grid won't increase its capacity to keep up despite plenty of evidence that expansion is planned. You're being alarmist about something that isn't really an issue.


wsnz
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  #2290326 5-Aug-2019 16:12
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On a related but slightly different note, speaking to a subcontractor for the local lines company regarding a potential transformer upgrade for a development we are involved with. The subcontractor pointed out to me that the calculations they use to determine transformer size are based on maximum possible load. Whether a car is likely to be charged at night is immaterial to their calculations, which must take into account the total possible load. Therefore (I am told) it is likely that subdivisions will require larger capacity transformers to be installed, along with greater gauge cable and larger capacity road-side fuses.  

 

At the moment an 110KvA transformer services around 6 properties but this is likely to be reduced to 2-3 to cope with the additional 15-32A load from each premises.  

 

Apparently no decisions have been made yet, however this is actively being discussed, and is likely to push up property prices. We paid $35K for the original 110KVa transformer to be installed several years ago, after a highly generous few percentage point subsidy from the lines company. 


tdgeek
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  #2290363 5-Aug-2019 16:53
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Obraik:

 

 

 

If you read what I wrote, you'd see that I said it's pointless to argue that the current day grid won't cope with X load in a number of years. You're assuming that grid won't increase its capacity to keep up despite plenty of evidence that expansion is planned. You're being alarmist about something that isn't really an issue.

 

 

So I'm alarmist? Its just a discussion. Our ability to build power is mainly consents, stalled consents, on hold consents. All while we are supposed to be going green and removing FF from the generation and the road. If your such an EV fan that you need to say everything will be fine dont worry about it, thats fine. The reality is infrastructure in general lags the need. But we want to bump usage to get rid of FF generation, then we we want bump usage again with EV etc. We dont live in full lake heaven 365 days a year. Do I feel confident that NZ will ensure its power infrastructure will grow as is needed? No. No other infrastructure does in NZ.It lags, at times it lags badly. 


Obraik
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  #2290368 5-Aug-2019 17:00
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tdgeek:

 

So I'm alarmist? Its just a discussion. Our ability to build power is mainly consents, stalled consents, on hold consents. All while we are supposed to be going green and removing FF from the generation and the road. If your such an EV fan that you need to say everything will be fine dont worry about it, thats fine. The reality is infrastructure in general lags the need. But we want to bump usage to get rid of FF generation, then we we want bump usage again with EV etc. We dont live in full lake heaven 365 days a year. Do I feel confident that NZ will ensure its power infrastructure will grow as is needed? No. No other infrastructure does in NZ.It lags, at times it lags badly. 

 

 

I'm a fan of facts ;)

 

Consent isn't an issue. In the list I linked to earlier, there is 3,126.5 MW of renewable power generation already consented. That's more than the whole of the current South Islands current generation capacity and 1k less than the North Islands.


tdgeek
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  #2290421 5-Aug-2019 18:37
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

So I'm alarmist? Its just a discussion. Our ability to build power is mainly consents, stalled consents, on hold consents. All while we are supposed to be going green and removing FF from the generation and the road. If your such an EV fan that you need to say everything will be fine dont worry about it, thats fine. The reality is infrastructure in general lags the need. But we want to bump usage to get rid of FF generation, then we we want bump usage again with EV etc. We dont live in full lake heaven 365 days a year. Do I feel confident that NZ will ensure its power infrastructure will grow as is needed? No. No other infrastructure does in NZ.It lags, at times it lags badly. 

 

 

I'm a fan of facts ;)

 

Consent isn't an issue. In the list I linked to earlier, there is 3,126.5 MW of renewable power generation already consented. That's more than the whole of the current South Islands current generation capacity and 1k less than the North Islands.

 

 

We are all well aware of those numbers. Lets hope that particular infrastructure is managed better than ALL others. History is history. But you know better than how NZ manages infrastructure and the history, impressive.


Obraik
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  #2290425 5-Aug-2019 18:49
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tdgeek:

 

We are all well aware of those numbers. Lets hope that particular infrastructure is managed better than ALL others. History is history. But you know better than how NZ manages infrastructure and the history, impressive.

 

 

If we were all aware of those numbers then some of us wouldn't be making claims that there's going to be a shortage of power in the future.


tdgeek
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  #2290430 5-Aug-2019 18:53
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OMG. In your eyes, as a massive fan, there can never ever be negative news. If you what to assume everything will go swimmingly because you want into, thats fine. If you feel that our infrastructure will be built well ahead of demand, thats also fine, doesnt happen anywhere else. . My claims are that its not obvious or clear or easy that it will all go fine, thats all. But fans don't want to think of anything thats not suitable. Thats the theme of this thread.


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