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Jeeves
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  #2291554 7-Aug-2019 11:17
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It's quite entertaining watch tdgeek come up with argument after argument, only to be rebutted with facts, figures, articles and papers - time and time again. I'm not sure I've seen him post a link to a single reference yet - it's all hyperbole and anecdotal. 

 

tdgeek: Whilst you may occasionally come up with some pittance of an argument that falls in favour of ICE, it'll probably be better for you to just accept that EV's are coming, they are staying, and they are going to dominate the next decade. 

 

It took until the late 20's early 30s before cars outnumber horses in the US. 17 years after the Model T production started, and a full sixty years after the first ICE car was invented. 

 

 

 

 

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2291577 7-Aug-2019 12:01
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SaltyNZ:

 

tdgeek:

 

So I have $32000 in the bank, earning interest

 

 

 

 

Ah, clearly one of those kiwi battlers then. Sadly I don't have even such meager resources as those to draw upon whenever, so I will never be able to afford an EV.

 

But even if the RUC comes back at the full rate with no other changes - which is crazy - that's still cheaper than an ICE and emits zero emissions which again is the point of EVs. The fact that they are cheaper to run is, shall we say, merely icing.

 

 

Doing it hard mate, doing it hard. Dunno where the next Latte is coming from... :-)  My example was if I planned to buy a Kona EV, but backed out due to lack of savings, and put that "leftover, not now required" 32 in the bank.   80k, less 8k subsidy, less 40k ICE Kona. The savings in fuel, say 2-20 per litre to 1-00 and some savings in servicing, would take a long long while to eat up that 32k premium

 

I dont really agree re RUC, RUC is not a fuel tax, its a tax on roads by road users. Its really nothing to do with EV or non EV, its about a car ruins roads over time. Incentive wise, yes, but we still need roads. If the EV gets bear price parity, say 10% more is fine by 2025, RUC or incentive are not relevant as running cost savings will tell you to buy the EV all day long

 

 


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2291580 7-Aug-2019 12:05
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SaltyNZ:

 

 

 

 

 

The feebate doesn't kick in till 2021. And if at that point the unsubsidised price of an EV is already approaching the price of an equivalent ICE, then the feebate should more than make up the rest of the difference

 

 

 

 

 

 

If that was the case, id remove the subsidy, keep there penalty, and invest those finds in maximising the charging infrastructure and a one off subsidy for a faster home charger install. The EV at near ICE will look after itself. If availability was high, as in PLENTY of EV's O'd be happy with extending it a couple of years or more to make them cheaper, AS LONG AS it only covers ranges where there is an EV option


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  #2291582 7-Aug-2019 12:12
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

SaltyNZ:

 

Price parity is not predicted for 2019. It's predicted for 3-5 years from now.

 

 

So, we have this small $8000 subsidy, and we haver this so called new tax, it seems that its premature. As there will be few EV;s sold, as the majority cannot afford an 80k base EV such as the Kona. If parity or near parity is due in 2025 we should wait till then.

 

 

They could always go for a cheaper Leaf at $60k.

 

 

Thats a poor argument. I want a Harley 1200cc motorbike so you suggest I get a 650? If I wanted a Leaf Id get a Leaf. If I want a Kona, and that's just my usual example, thats what I want. I could say that I want a 60k Leaf, but 2025 is a better option price wise. The 60k leaf still has a sizeable premium as its not a 60k car in its ICE version. A 30k ICE would be similar? Ok, it will cost me $30,000 to get the EV which will depreciate more, offer just $1 per litre fuel savings, Im better off with the ICE and 30k in the bank. That the question that all buyers will have. 

 

The premium make the cost of ownership high. Particularly as the natural use case for an EV is daily low mileage running around. So that $30,000 in the bank will last even longer.

 

Its all about the premium. So, emt FF until 2021, or emit them to 2025 when there may be price parity. You can't blame consumers. 


tdgeek
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  #2291593 7-Aug-2019 12:20
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Jeeves:

 

It's quite entertaining watch tdgeek come up with argument after argument, only to be rebutted with facts, figures, articles and papers - time and time again. I'm not sure I've seen him post a link to a single reference yet - it's all hyperbole and anecdotal. 

 

tdgeek: Whilst you may occasionally come up with some pittance of an argument that falls in favour of ICE, it'll probably be better for you to just accept that EV's are coming, they are staying, and they are going to dominate the next decade. 

 

It took until the late 20's early 30s before cars outnumber horses in the US. 17 years after the Model T production started, and a full sixty years after the first ICE car was invented. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another fan club member. If you think Im pro ICE and anti EV you cant read. Apologies if commenting on the challenges that EV have upsets you. You really cannot read at all. 

 

it'll probably be better for you to just accept that EV's are coming, they are staying, and they are going to dominate the next decade.

 

That is a crazy comment. Ive never commented that those are my beliefs, although I would heavily doub the domination that will obviously occur will be in a decade. But ouch, that TDGeek sating anti EV stuff as he hates EV's. My goodness this is worse than the old Apple vs Android threads, by a mile.

 

But I will acknowledge there are posters here who post great info, they know who they are. But the obsessed fan club who have the gaul to decide what I do or dont like, and who are incorrect due to obsession is crazy. As I said, no wonder there are few regulars here


jonathan18
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  #2291603 7-Aug-2019 12:40
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Once upon a time, this used to be a great thread to catch up on interesting and new developments related to EVs, now it's difficult to find this good content amongst this constant sparring - which typically generates lots of heat but little light. 

 

tdgeek - may be time to chill out a little? Or, perhaps, pick up on this specific comment - 

 

It's quite entertaining watch tdgeek come up with argument after argument, only to be rebutted with facts, figures, articles and papers - time and time again. I'm not sure I've seen him post a link to a single reference yet - it's all hyperbole and anecdotal.

 

Many of the responses to your posts in this thread do indeed include evidence to support the author's claims; perhaps there'd be less frustration expressed here if you tried the same? Dismissing any post or any member with whom you disagree on the basis that they're an EV fanboi does you and your case few favours. 


Obraik
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  #2291608 7-Aug-2019 12:51
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tdgeek:

 

Thats a poor argument. I want a Harley 1200cc motorbike so you suggest I get a 650? If I wanted a Leaf Id get a Leaf. If I want a Kona, and that's just my usual example, thats what I want. I could say that I want a 60k Leaf, but 2025 is a better option price wise. The 60k leaf still has a sizeable premium as its not a 60k car in its ICE version. A 30k ICE would be similar? Ok, it will cost me $30,000 to get the EV which will depreciate more, offer just $1 per litre fuel savings, Im better off with the ICE and 30k in the bank. That the question that all buyers will have. 

 

The premium make the cost of ownership high. Particularly as the natural use case for an EV is daily low mileage running around. So that $30,000 in the bank will last even longer.

 

Its all about the premium. So, emt FF until 2021, or emit them to 2025 when there may be price parity. You can't blame consumers. 

 

 

The 2019 Leaf and Kona are actually very similar. Have you seen both in person? They're of a similar size, similar boot space and similar performance. The main difference is the range.


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2291617 7-Aug-2019 13:19
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jonathan18:

 

Once upon a time, this used to be a great thread to catch up on interesting and new developments related to EVs, now it's difficult to find this good content amongst this constant sparring - which typically generates lots of heat but little light. 

 

tdgeek - may be time to chill out a little? Or, perhaps, pick up on this specific comment - 

 

It's quite entertaining watch tdgeek come up with argument after argument, only to be rebutted with facts, figures, articles and papers - time and time again. I'm not sure I've seen him post a link to a single reference yet - it's all hyperbole and anecdotal.

 

Many of the responses to your posts in this thread do indeed include evidence to support the author's claims; perhaps there'd be less frustration expressed here if you tried the same? Dismissing any post or any member with whom you disagree on the basis that they're an EV fanboi does you and your case few favours. 

 

 

Im sure I have posted links or referrals to existing links. One recent example, the consent link. To me a consent is a consent. It may or may not be built. But the "evidence by another tells us that ALL consents will ALL eb built and IN TIME for demand. Thats rubbish and false evidence. So that's ok? It seems so. I dont need chiliing out, I'm not upset, but any challenges I do commit omg, do upset some here. Thats very clear. And the reason is very clear. Some of this thread is interesting others are just plain fanboy comments, which yes should be filtered out as the drivel they are. It is quite clear that commenting on challenges now and win the future is not acceptable, ask yourself why. And when anecdotal replies about the future (which hey, hasn't happened yet), is decreed evidence and facts. You do have to laugh sometimes. But yes Jonathan Im better off to ignore fanboy based drivel and focus more o facts such as from Salty, Steve, and some others.


tdgeek
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  #2291627 7-Aug-2019 13:28
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Thats a poor argument. I want a Harley 1200cc motorbike so you suggest I get a 650? If I wanted a Leaf Id get a Leaf. If I want a Kona, and that's just my usual example, thats what I want. I could say that I want a 60k Leaf, but 2025 is a better option price wise. The 60k leaf still has a sizeable premium as its not a 60k car in its ICE version. A 30k ICE would be similar? Ok, it will cost me $30,000 to get the EV which will depreciate more, offer just $1 per litre fuel savings, Im better off with the ICE and 30k in the bank. That the question that all buyers will have. 

 

The premium make the cost of ownership high. Particularly as the natural use case for an EV is daily low mileage running around. So that $30,000 in the bank will last even longer.

 

Its all about the premium. So, emit FF until 2021, or emit them to 2025 when there may be price parity. You can't blame consumers. 

 

 

The 2019 Leaf and Kona are actually very similar. Have you seen both in person? They're of a similar size, similar boot space and similar performance. The main difference is the range.

 

 

Thats very true, but one is 20k cheaper, why is that? It's not just range. Although range matters to me. Some of you have stated you will hang out for the subsidy. Thats the same thing. The Leaf and the Kona have severe price premiums. Some will clearly hang out for price parity. The best price/benefit option is a second hand Leaf. I dont what a Leaf. I dont want second hand. I dont what to buy a car that is "worth" 40k, for 80k. Same car, different price. You can justify your Tesla by saying its a 75k car. If I was so keen on an EV that im happy to throw 32k out the window then I could do that. But spending 32k to save one dollar a litre for a car that will be mainly urban use is a waste. As supply is low, prices are high, early adopters will pick hem up, so its no real issue.But you can't blame consumers for bucking the price premium. 80% is significant after subsidy. And saying buy an EV but a cheaper one, maybe second hand isn't really a fear response. 

 

Edit: fear response meant to be fair response...


Handle9
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  #2291662 7-Aug-2019 13:57
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tdgeek:

 

jonathan18:

 

Once upon a time, this used to be a great thread to catch up on interesting and new developments related to EVs, now it's difficult to find this good content amongst this constant sparring - which typically generates lots of heat but little light. 

 

tdgeek - may be time to chill out a little? Or, perhaps, pick up on this specific comment - 

 

It's quite entertaining watch tdgeek come up with argument after argument, only to be rebutted with facts, figures, articles and papers - time and time again. I'm not sure I've seen him post a link to a single reference yet - it's all hyperbole and anecdotal.

 

Many of the responses to your posts in this thread do indeed include evidence to support the author's claims; perhaps there'd be less frustration expressed here if you tried the same? Dismissing any post or any member with whom you disagree on the basis that they're an EV fanboi does you and your case few favours. 

 

 

Im sure I have posted links or referrals to existing links. One recent example, the consent link. To me a consent is a consent. It may or may not be built. But the "evidence by another tells us that ALL consents will ALL eb built and IN TIME for demand. Thats rubbish and false evidence. So that's ok? It seems so. I dont need chiliing out, I'm not upset, but any challenges I do commit omg, do upset some here. Thats very clear. And the reason is very clear. Some of this thread is interesting others are just plain fanboy comments, which yes should be filtered out as the drivel they are. It is quite clear that commenting on challenges now and win the future is not acceptable, ask yourself why. And when anecdotal replies about the future (which hey, hasn't happened yet), is decreed evidence and facts. You do have to laugh sometimes. But yes Jonathan Im better off to ignore fanboy based drivel and focus more o facts such as from Salty, Steve, and some others.

 

 

You are coming across as slightly unhinged on this topic. Name calling everyone who has a different opinion to you just makes you seem like a grumpy old man.

 

You clearly have a very limited understanding of the New Zealand energy market or the way generators plan demand so you are relying on your opinions as facts. It'd be nice if you toned it down as this has once again turned into a tdgeek shouting at everyone else thread.


tdgeek
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  #2291681 7-Aug-2019 14:46
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Handle9:

 

tdgeek:

 

jonathan18:

 

Once upon a time, this used to be a great thread to catch up on interesting and new developments related to EVs, now it's difficult to find this good content amongst this constant sparring - which typically generates lots of heat but little light. 

 

tdgeek - may be time to chill out a little? Or, perhaps, pick up on this specific comment - 

 

It's quite entertaining watch tdgeek come up with argument after argument, only to be rebutted with facts, figures, articles and papers - time and time again. I'm not sure I've seen him post a link to a single reference yet - it's all hyperbole and anecdotal.

 

Many of the responses to your posts in this thread do indeed include evidence to support the author's claims; perhaps there'd be less frustration expressed here if you tried the same? Dismissing any post or any member with whom you disagree on the basis that they're an EV fanboi does you and your case few favours. 

 

 

Im sure I have posted links or referrals to existing links. One recent example, the consent link. To me a consent is a consent. It may or may not be built. But the "evidence by another tells us that ALL consents will ALL eb built and IN TIME for demand. Thats rubbish and false evidence. So that's ok? It seems so. I dont need chiliing out, I'm not upset, but any challenges I do commit omg, do upset some here. Thats very clear. And the reason is very clear. Some of this thread is interesting others are just plain fanboy comments, which yes should be filtered out as the drivel they are. It is quite clear that commenting on challenges now and win the future is not acceptable, ask yourself why. And when anecdotal replies about the future (which hey, hasn't happened yet), is decreed evidence and facts. You do have to laugh sometimes. But yes Jonathan Im better off to ignore fanboy based drivel and focus more o facts such as from Salty, Steve, and some others.

 

 

You are coming across as slightly unhinged on this topic. Name calling everyone who has a different opinion to you just makes you seem like a grumpy old man.

 

You clearly have a very limited understanding of the New Zealand energy market or the way generators plan demand so you are relying on your opinions as facts. It'd be nice if you toned it down as this has once again turned into a tdgeek shouting at everyone else thread.

 

 

Fine then. Explain to me then how consent is defines as , will definitely happen, will definitely happen on time to meet demand. Thats the defintion from someone here, who also quoted around 3100 MW we need when the Govt say 6000MW, as from links here

 

While you are at it, look up name calling. Just because I dont see the sweet smelling roses of EV 100% of the time, despite being interested in them, doesn't mean that's wrong. Or are you also a fortune teller? Just an occasional topic where its about fans not discussion. Sating anything here that is vaguely negative is anti EV, thats the disconnect.

 

But yeah whatever. I cannot even mention BMC and his mantra of "ball 1" without you coming back omg on about other aspects of his game. I thought ball 1 was enough of a descriptor, but everyone has to be right or needs to correct others at times


tdgeek
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  #2291682 7-Aug-2019 14:48
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Unhinged what BS. Sorry for not playing the EV are great all the time card. Given they are relatively new and there are many challenges, almost all that are future based,  I assumed that was worthwhile commenting on. Clearly not


tdgeek
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  #2291742 7-Aug-2019 15:12
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Look guys if you all think I am anti EV that's totally incorrect. Read my posts from day one on these threads. If me raising challenges makes some unhappy, then I apologise. Many challenges are future related. yes I have used links, yes I have referred to them, and no I dont state my opinions as facts. Correct me as some do, appreciated, But some here are highly fan based which means that any negative comments are taken badly. Ive seen many comments which I felt were meaningful were ignored, and have had support ticks. In any case I see a pattern where posting negative comments is taken as anti EV. If everyone here things EV has no challenges worth mentioning , well thats fine then. But I do apologise.

 

@Handle9 sorry. When I am sitting here quite happy posting seomething that I feel has merit and is called unhinged, I find that annoying, apologies for my last post. Grumpy old man? No, not quite. Its just a topic of interest to me, no more, no less. Sorry again.

 

Back to my gardening day off. 


maxeon
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  #2291743 7-Aug-2019 15:13
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I drive a Tesla and I am a early adopter who paid hefty price for it. I personally do not regret it because I really like the car and it's technology along with the drive and instant response. I will not compare this against any other car in the market around that price bracket just because they are not apples to apples. Audi Q7 was my previous one, I can tell you lot of people said Audi was very comfortable seats, luxury built and heavy and nice to drive etc, but my current Tesla will accelerate faster, has more functions and personally feel it has more technical advancements, so I guess I am satisfied with the premium I paid for now. 

 

Saying the above, I don't think my Tesla will drop significantly in price in the next 4 years, perhaps less than an Audi. 

 

Just saying .. 


Obraik
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  #2291749 7-Aug-2019 15:24
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tdgeek:

 

Fine then. Explain to me then how consent is defines as , will definitely happen, will definitely happen on time to meet demand. Thats the defintion from someone here, who also quoted around 3100 MW we need when the Govt say 6000MW, as from links here

 

 

You've misread what was written. The 3100MW number is adding up all the currently consented renewable power stations, which was in reply to a claim by you that you weren't aware of any other hydro projects (6 consented hydro stations are included in that number).


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