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maxeon
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  #2343396 25-Oct-2019 09:43
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ramping up the production of EV is largely dependent on the battery packs being available. 


Obraik
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  #2343476 25-Oct-2019 12:11
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tdgeek:

 

Nice car, price, features. Why do they have physical wing mirrors?? I watched a youtube of a small EV recently, no mirrors, its done by cameras. With all the aero design going on and we still have warts on either side

 

 

Because not all markets allow for cameras instead of mirrors. I believe here in NZ to get a WOF a requirement is having wing mirrors. These requirements could be changed but these things take time.


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2343481 25-Oct-2019 12:28
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Nice car, price, features. Why do they have physical wing mirrors?? I watched a youtube of a small EV recently, no mirrors, its done by cameras. With all the aero design going on and we still have warts on either side

 

 

Because not all markets allow for cameras instead of mirrors. I believe here in NZ to get a WOF a requirement is having wing mirrors. These requirements could be changed but these things take time.

 

 

Fair enough. typical NZ. The requirement is seeing rearwards, then no issue. 5 working groups over 6 years, then 2 years to get it past Parliament should do it. Typical NZ


Linuxluver

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  #2343483 25-Oct-2019 12:31
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tdgeek:

For an established ICE manufacturer I assume their production of any one model is high? You would assume they could ramp up EV production to the same level if required?



It's not a valid assumption, I suspect.

EVs have electric motors. Making them has almost nothing in common with engines.
EV drivetrains are very different. The motors can even be part of the wheels.
EVs have sophisticated battery management systems. These require development and maintenance - firmware / hardware / software.
EVs have batteries that are unlike anything in an ICE. Totally different technology and supply chain.

Making EVs is pretty much starting over. Tesla began that process 10 years ago. This is why car makes are struggling. How do they move from one horse to another in the middle of a race?

Very tricky. Especially when one horse is already there and way out in front.




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If you order a Tesla, click my referral code below to order your car and get free stuff. 

 

My Tesla referral code: https://ts.la/steve52356


Obraik
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  #2343485 25-Oct-2019 12:37
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tdgeek:

 

Fair enough. typical NZ. The requirement is seeing rearwards, then no issue. 5 working groups over 6 years, then 2 years to get it past Parliament should do it. Typical NZ

 

 

NZ is one, yes. However the US also has regulations that specify wing mirrors which currently prevent cameras from being an option. Being that the US is a huge market this is the biggest influence on cameras not replacing mirrors. However, it does appear that law changes to allow them are currently pending and I suspect this will ramp up this feature when it does happen. Tesla is banking on this change as the new Roadster is designed with cameras.


tdgeek
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  #2343487 25-Oct-2019 12:48
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Fair enough. typical NZ. The requirement is seeing rearwards, then no issue. 5 working groups over 6 years, then 2 years to get it past Parliament should do it. Typical NZ

 

 

NZ is one, yes. However the US also has regulations that specify wing mirrors which currently prevent cameras from being an option. Being that the US is a huge market this is the biggest influence on cameras not replacing mirrors. However, it does appear that law changes to allow them are currently pending and I suspect this will ramp up this feature when it does happen. Tesla is banking on this change as the new Roadster is designed with cameras.

 

 

The review I watched was by a UK guy, cannot recall if it was in the UK or Europe. Cant recall te car, but it was small and a standard everyday ICE brand. Tip of the tongue


tdgeek
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  #2343488 25-Oct-2019 12:51
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Linuxluver:
tdgeek:

 

For an established ICE manufacturer I assume their production of any one model is high? You would assume they could ramp up EV production to the same level if required?

 



It's not a valid assumption, I suspect.

EVs have electric motors. Making them has almost nothing in common with engines.
EV drivetrains are very different. The motors can even be part of the wheels.
EVs have sophisticated battery management systems. These require development and maintenance - firmware / hardware / software.
EVs have batteries that are unlike anything in an ICE. Totally different technology and supply chain.

Making EVs is pretty much starting over. Tesla began that process 10 years ago. This is why car makes are struggling. How do they move from one horse to another in the middle of a race?

Very tricky. Especially when one horse is already there and way out in front.

 

TBH I cant see it as being tricky, its a car assembly production line. There are many EV's out there now, they aren't learning how to put them together. Whioe it may be battery supply as someone stated, or not enough demand yet, it cant be production capability


 
 
 
 


Guilliman
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  #2343491 25-Oct-2019 13:04
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Are these 'crossover SUVs' in between a decent hatchback and a behemoth? I wonder about their purpose. I still don't get vehicles like the BMW X4.

 

 

With regards to gigafactories, I can't recall the specifics but I think Elon was asked about driving EV adoption or some similar question. He answered something along the lines of needing 10[?] gigafactories around the world. Anyone have a better memory than me on this one?

Obraik
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  #2343508 25-Oct-2019 13:55
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tdgeek:

 

The review I watched was by a UK guy, cannot recall if it was in the UK or Europe. Cant recall te car, but it was small and a standard everyday ICE brand. Tip of the tongue

 

 

Honda? The Honda E is meant to be cameras only


tdgeek
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  #2343511 25-Oct-2019 14:05
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

The review I watched was by a UK guy, cannot recall if it was in the UK or Europe. Cant recall te car, but it was small and a standard everyday ICE brand. Tip of the tongue

 

 

Honda? The Honda E is meant to be cameras only

 

 

I think it was, yes.


Delphinus
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  #2343545 25-Oct-2019 15:18
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Guilliman: Are these 'crossover SUVs' in between a decent hatchback and a behemoth? I wonder about their purpose. I still don't get vehicles like the BMW X4.

 

Unfortunately it seems for many the 'crossover SUV' is actually smaller than a hatchback on the inside, but just higher and with a more SUV like seating position. I hate them. Looking at you Hyundai Kona. Noticeably smaller than my Mazda 3 hatch on the inside, but bigger on the outside!


tdgeek
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  #2343549 25-Oct-2019 15:24
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Delphinus:

 

Guilliman: Are these 'crossover SUVs' in between a decent hatchback and a behemoth? I wonder about their purpose. I still don't get vehicles like the BMW X4.

 

Unfortunately it seems for many the 'crossover SUV' is actually smaller than a hatchback on the inside, but just higher and with a more SUV like seating position. I hate them. Looking at you Hyundai Kona. Noticeably smaller than my Mazda 3 hatch on the inside, but bigger on the outside!

 

 

Funny, I bought a 2010 Honda Fit Mugen recently, just for golf. (one car one motorbike family doesnt cut it when I got back into golf) It's small. But inside its roomy. Back seat is roomy, fold back seats down, room for two sets of golf clubs, trundlers and beers. Handy for Mitre 10 DIY as  well

 

Best buy ever


NzBeagle
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  #2343555 25-Oct-2019 15:40
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Nice car, price, features. Why do they have physical wing mirrors?? I watched a youtube of a small EV recently, no mirrors, its done by cameras. With all the aero design going on and we still have warts on either side

 

 

Because not all markets allow for cameras instead of mirrors. I believe here in NZ to get a WOF a requirement is having wing mirrors. These requirements could be changed but these things take time.

 

 

Fair enough. typical NZ. The requirement is seeing rearwards, then no issue. 5 working groups over 6 years, then 2 years to get it past Parliament should do it. Typical NZ

 

 

I believe that this is ok in NZ, there's a Mercedes semi-truck I'm aware of expected on the road next month with the Mirror Cam option fitted. In theory, it should provide better visibility, but will remain to be seen. Of course, it is not on the road yet, perhaps it won't meet NZTA requirement.


Scott3
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  #2343556 25-Oct-2019 15:41
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Guilliman: Are these 'crossover SUVs' in between a decent hatchback and a behemoth? I wonder about their purpose. I still don't get vehicles like the BMW X4.

 

The crossover (or crossover suv) is an american term for an SUV built on a uni-body platform (as opposed to one built on top of a truck style chases).

 

SUV is not a clearly defined term, but generally refers to vehicles with a taller stance, two box body style (like a wagon or hatchback), raised ground clearance, larger tire diameter, and often off road features such as four wheel drive. Clearly many modern vehicles marketed as SUV's omit many of those features.

Size really has nothing to do with it. Tiny SUV's such as the previous generation Suzuki Jimny are full frame SUV's, while very large vehicles such as the 4917mm long Holden Arcadia, and 5199mm long Range Rover (L405) are both considered crossovers due to their unibody construction.

 

As to why, starting with the 1994 Toyota Rav 4 (based on the corolla platform), auto makers discovered that there was a significant market of people that desired a SUV form factor with a more rugged styling, ahigher seating position, and wagon style cargo area (given that wagons are / were unfashionable in the USA). A bunch of this market would prefer car like handling, and comfort, and were willing to give up some off road ability to do so.

The market has boomed since then. Unibody construction allows for lower manufacturing cost, lighter vehicle weight, and greatly increased interior volume as the that would have been occupied by a ladder chassis is put to better use. Given most cross over owners don't actually take them off road, many designed have softened further, giving up features like 4WD, and in some cases ground clearance. These have sold like hot cakes, at the expense of pretty much every other vehicle market segment (especially station wagons, large sedans and minivans). I think it is also eaiser to design a unibody car to preform well in crash tests.

 

I own one myself. Compared to an equivalent full frame SUV's it is lighter, faster, more efficient, more comfortable, superior interior space for exterior dimensions & has better on road handling.

While full frame SUV's are still preferred by those spending a lot of time off road, even the off road market is swinging towards unibody construction. The Mitsubishi Pajero, the current Suzuki Jimny, the Jeep Grand Cherokee and the 2020 Land rover defender would all be examples of competent off roaders that would be consider crossovers SUV's.

 


Note that many compact and subcompact SUV's are basically hatchbacks with slightly bigger wheels and a small suspension lift. In the case of the subaru XV, wheels, tires, suspension lift , and some (mostly plastic) trim is the only difference from the imprezza.

 

 

 

With regards to EV's, pritty much all EV SUV's are cross overs, generally at the smaller end of the spectrium. The Kona EV for example, despite being marketed as a SUV has a lot less interior space than a Nissan Leaf hatchback. Once you look at the exterior dimensions and notice the kona is quite a bit shorter, this is not surprising.

 

 

 

Delphinus:

 

Unfortunately it seems for many the 'crossover SUV' is actually smaller than a hatchback on the inside, but just higher and with a more SUV like seating position. I hate them. Looking at you Hyundai Kona. Noticeably smaller than my Mazda 3 hatch on the inside, but bigger on the outside!

 

 


People just assume the kona is big due to the marketing as a SUV. They forget the "Subcompact" SUV bit.

Current Mazda hatch 3 external dimensions is 4.446m long, 1.796m wide, 1.440m high.
Kona EV extrenal dimensions is 4.165m long, 1800mm wide, 1565mm high.



 

The Kona is closer to length to a mazda 2, so it is not a surprise that it's interior space reflects this, main difference is the height. Most EV's are quite tall as the battery pack needs to be put under the floor or seats. For example the first gen leaf is 1550mm tall.

given that the kona EV is not a ground up EV design. Ground up EV's like the tesla's, BMW i3, and VW iD3 can optimism packaging to suit the battery, and lack of engine, hence freeing up more interior space. the iD3 is ment to have the exterior dimensions of a golf, and interior dimensions of a passat...


kingdragonfly
5117 posts

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  #2343680 26-Oct-2019 08:09
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The US national fossil fuel lobby heavily at the US state level to tax EV's, because why not be evil?

The US Consumer Reports magazine released an alarming study of 50 US state, with the majority having yearly EV fees, and how it compares to similar gas-powered cars in gas taxes paid at the pump:

  • 26 have fees

  • 11 states charge more than the amount owners of similar gas-powered cars pay

  • three states charge more than twice the amount.

    Note Pennsylvania' proposed EV tax was proposed by a Republican, and then increased by an additional $100, again by Republicans.

    An electric car tax won’t solve the US state Pennsylvania's transportation woes, but it could increase pollution

    Pennsylvania Capital-Star

    By Shannon Baker-Branstetter

    Electric vehicles are saving drivers money on fuel, and they help reduce harmful air pollution. But the state Legislature is poised to make it more expensive for people to choose electric vehicles by hitting Pennsylvanians with a new, extra tax.

    In Pennsylvania, electric vehicles are about 68 percent less-polluting than the average gasoline-powered car, making them a great tool for fighting climate change and reducing harmful air pollution. Electric vehicles have come a long way in the last couple years.

    Most automakers sell at least one electric model, they come in a range of vehicle types, and their acceleration, reliability, and owner satisfaction tend to get top marks from independent testing organizations like Consumer Reports. They also have lower maintenance and fuel costs, and are fun and quiet to drive.

    Despite the benefits, members of the Pennsylvania legislature are considering slapping additional taxes on electric vehicle owners with some of the highest fees in the nation — at $250 or even $275 per year.

    That’s well above what average new gasoline-powered vehicle owners pay in gas taxes. This plan is both ineffective and unfair, because it wouldn’t solve the state’s transportation funding shortfalls, but could discourage drivers from choosing a vehicle that would save them money on fuel and help our environment.
    ...
    https://www.penncapital-star.com/commentary/an-electric-car-tax-wont-solve-pas-transportation-woes-but-it-could-increase-pollution-opinion/

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