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  #2409989 30-Jan-2020 08:44
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RobDickinson:

 

Cells are roughly $120 per kwh now, the cost of them is no longer an excuse for the high prices IMO.

 

 

Good to hear. Once some brands price on that basis and not what I assume is R+D recovery, we might see some nice prices. Perhaps delayed if production is relatively low still and all are selling


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  #2409990 30-Jan-2020 08:49
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I think there are 3 problems...

Cell supply - cant replace ICe cars, prevents economies of scale. Building 100,000 of anything is much more expensive than 1,000,000

 

Design - EVs need new platforms and efficiency, they are failing at this because their processes are too slow their departments are too divided

 

Product protection - you wouldnt choose to sell a better vehicle for the same price or less when that will make most of your products unsavory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect )

 

Which is why tesla is creaming it, there are no self imposed barriers to their cars

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  #2409992 30-Jan-2020 09:04
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tdgeek:

 

The Honda from what I recall, is not far off the ICE price?

 

 

Honda = $50,000 (approx conversion from GBP)

 

Suzuki Swift = $20,000

 

The Honda is essentially a small urban shopping box, hence my comparison to the SWIFT.

 

Obviously the Honda is funkier, with much more tech than the SWIFT, and is faster off the mark (but has much lower range) - but in a real world comparison, where consumers have limits on their disposable income, the current price difference is significant.


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  #2409993 30-Jan-2020 09:06
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The small car market has proven multiple times to be very price sensitive, if you have more money you buy a bigger car.

 

 

 

Also that market doesnt tend to have cash hanging round to save money on the running costs over time etc.


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  #2409996 30-Jan-2020 09:11
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dafman:

 

tdgeek:

 

The Honda from what I recall, is not far off the ICE price?

 

 

Honda = $50,000 (approx conversion from GBP)

 

Suzuki Swift = $20,000

 

The Honda is essentially a small urban shopping box, hence my comparison to the SWIFT.

 

Obviously the Honda is funkier, with much more tech than the SWIFT, and is faster off the mark (but has much lower range) - but in a real world comparison, where consumers have limits on their disposable income, the current price difference is significant.

 

 

Ok, I read something only the other day that one of the models was very near the ICE, a quick squizz of the link shows it may have been the Mini?


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  #2410004 30-Jan-2020 09:40
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tdgeek:

 

dafman:

 

tdgeek:

 

The Honda from what I recall, is not far off the ICE price?

 

 

Honda = $50,000 (approx conversion from GBP)

 

Suzuki Swift = $20,000

 

The Honda is essentially a small urban shopping box, hence my comparison to the SWIFT.

 

Obviously the Honda is funkier, with much more tech than the SWIFT, and is faster off the mark (but has much lower range) - but in a real world comparison, where consumers have limits on their disposable income, the current price difference is significant.

 

 

Ok, I read something only the other day that one of the models was very near the ICE, a quick squizz of the link shows it may have been the Mini?

 

 

That's pretty normal these days when it comes to the "premium" market. Since their ICE vehicles are already marked up it's not overly hard to get their EVs to the same price point.


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  #2410005 30-Jan-2020 09:42
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Mini electric is using old i3 tech etc too, its not a new platform or tech so costs can be kept down


 
 
 
 


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  #2410006 30-Jan-2020 09:50
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Obraik:

 

 

 

That's pretty normal these days when it comes to the "premium" market. Since their ICE vehicles are already marked up it's not overly hard to get their EVs to the same price point.

 

 

The Mini is premium?  The link shows it starts at STG15k  but the mid model is STG26k  . What I read the other day and I'm sure it was the Mini, was that it was close to the ICE, (UK based article) but Id hardly call it premium


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  #2410013 30-Jan-2020 10:07
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

That's pretty normal these days when it comes to the "premium" market. Since their ICE vehicles are already marked up it's not overly hard to get their EVs to the same price point.

 

 

The Mini is premium?  The link shows it starts at STG15k  but the mid model is STG26k  . What I read the other day and I'm sure it was the Mini, was that it was close to the ICE, (UK based article) but Id hardly call it premium

 

 

It would be the premium brand in the small car category, considering a Swift starts at $19k new and the Mini starts at $34k new


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  #2411631 2-Feb-2020 18:10
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You can skip to 2:20, and 8:30. Wow that's some instant torque

First Drive: Ken Block Drives the ALL NEW Extreme E Electric Racecar in Last Stage of Dakar Rally

Ken Block

This is my first drive in an all-electric racecar... ever. And it's in the Dakar Rally, of all places!! How rad is that? I had the opportunity to race the final stage of Dakar in the all new Extreme E ODYSSEY 21 racecar, and it was an absolute blast. And yes, I may have ripped a donut or two in it, too. The wildest feeling was how instantly the electric torque came on (all 750lb/ft) and how fun it was to drive because of that.


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  #2411636 2-Feb-2020 18:18
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RobDickinson: Product protection - you wouldnt choose to sell a better vehicle for the same price or less when that will make most of your products unsavory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect )


Which is why tesla is creaming it, there are no self imposed barriers to their cars



I can speak firsthand about the "Osborne" effect, because I'm holding off on an EV till the freebate happens.

While politicians really like to talk about future goodness, too much lead time will cause grief for people selling EV's between the time of announcement and the time of implementation.

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  #2411651 2-Feb-2020 18:44
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kingdragonfly:
RobDickinson: Product protection - you wouldnt choose to sell a better vehicle for the same price or less when that will make most of your products unsavory ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect )

 

Which is why tesla is creaming it, there are no self imposed barriers to their cars



I can speak firsthand about the "Osborne" effect, because I'm holding off on an EV till the freebate happens.

While politicians really like to talk about future goodness, too much lead time will cause grief for people selling EV's between the time of announcement and the time of implementation.

 

Thats exactly right. Im keen on an EV. But we are in transition. Prices offer no value, range isnt ideal, the number of models isnt ideal. So the manufacturers who cannot supply demand anyway, have no interest in the green benefits. And the buyers are expected to pay premiums that offer no value. The early adopters can forge ahead, which they are, and emissions still increase. Future goodness is a great theme, but who wants to buy a $80k EV when the ICE is half that? 


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  #2411652 2-Feb-2020 18:49
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Me? I decided I couldn't contribute any more(co2 e5c) if I could avoid it. 

 

 

 

I can afford it, the car I bought wouldn't be in the rebate system anyhow and it's range, tech, charging speeds and performance is more than good enough.

 

 

 

Though people like me don't make up a large chunk of the market though. 


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  #2411653 2-Feb-2020 18:53
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tdgeek:

 

Thats exactly right. Im keen on an EV. But we are in transition. Prices offer no value, range isnt ideal, the number of models isnt ideal. So the manufacturers who cannot supply demand anyway, have no interest in the green benefits. And the buyers are expected to pay premiums that offer no value. The early adopters can forge ahead, which they are, and emissions still increase. Future goodness is a great theme, but who wants to buy a $80k EV when the ICE is half that? 

 

 

That really depends on what market you're in.  If you want a cheap runabout car then yeah, there is a significant price premium to get an EV equivalent.  If on the other hand you're in the market for something like a BMW 3 series, a European SUV or something like that then the price equity is already here.


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  #2411659 2-Feb-2020 18:56
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Model 3 is lots cheaper than a BMW or audi. 

 

 

 

If you can deal with the leafs range it's a much better town/commute car than any ice car used, will typically pay for itself. 


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