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662 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411726 2-Feb-2020 21:31
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tdgeek:

 

Thank you, at least someone here can have a rational discussion.

 

Price parity doesn't mean entry level, it means price parity. As you know my pet example is the Kona, where the EV is about double. You get $40k Kona quality, or you get the same quality but in an 80k package. Where does premium level kick in? 70k? 80k?

 

Thanks for the details on the 3 and T3. Doesn't Tesla provide you with a car that has features that you need to pay extra for so they unlock them? So the car you bought has those features, and you have paid for them. But you need to pay extra to unlock them. 

 

We have read about door panel issues, paint issues, etc. Thats not really what I see positive when dealing with an Apple type brand, preceded as premium quality. Except that Apple was premium hardware and software quality. Personally I see Tesla as 1.0. Keen to see how they progress though. 

 

Runabout Leaf? No, I dont agree, you will pay a good % more to get an older car as in the Leaf, as compared to a newer lower km ICE, and with low weekly mileage, you won't recover that extra

 

 

I'm well aware what price parity is, and I've mentioned three times now that no, price parity doesn't exist at the entry level/low cost bracket such as what you're comparing an ICE Kona to. When you get to the premium ICE brands such as BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc then yeah, price parity is basically there now. An Audi eTron and an ICE Audi Q8 are basically the same price.

 

What you've mentioned for Tesla is only true of Full Self Driving, the feature which currently means that the car can change lanes on its own on the motorway with the eventual goal that it will be able to drive you from home to work and back without you needing to actively control the car (if Elon is to be believed, this latter functionality will be with us by the end of the year). I think we should be able to agree that self driving is in a different category to other features like dash cam functionality and auto high beams. Any new features outside of self driving that Tesla creates in software updates is automatically available to their cars for free.

 

If you want to stick on points about panel gaps and paint issues then that's up to you but both Tesla and the world has moved on as these issues you mentioned are from years ago now when Tesla was ramping up. Nearly all car reviewers compare the Model 3 with the BMW 3 series.

 

From a performance point of view, a $10k Leaf is going to perform a lot better than any of the low budget new vehicles. However, I appreciate that if one is shopping for a new vehicle that they might not be wanting to consider a second hand vehicle.


662 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411729 2-Feb-2020 21:54
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kingdragonfly: I didn't realize the EV freebate was scrapped, and yet another proposal has taken its place, with only a vague implementation date of 2021.

The Government's proposal for a sweeping fuel-efficient vehicle policy is being criticised because it doesn't apply to the majority of cars being sold.

It would only apply to newly-imported used and brand new light vehicles from 2021 onwards, and would only hit those vehicles when they are sold for the first time - taking in about only a quarter of vehicle sales.

School Strike 4 Climate NZ criticised the proposal and said all vehicle sales should be affected by fuel efficiency standards.

The "feebate" scheme wouldn't cost the taxpayer anything, instead using money gained by putting a fee on imported high-emissions cars in order to make imported hybrids, electric cars, and other efficient vehicles cheaper with a subsidy.

The policy would make some cars up to $8000 cheaper - while others would be $3000 more expensive.

The scheme would not just apply to electric vehicles: It would make efficient cars like a Suzuki Swift or Toyota Corolla cheaper, and bring the cost of hybrids to near-parity with non-hybrid cars by bringing their costs down by as much as $6800.

But it would also make New Zealand's most popular new imported car - the Ford Ranger - $2250 more expensive...

So if you want to use as little imported and Earth-warming petrol as possible at a good price, I'd recommend a Prius.

I know it still uses petrol, but at least it's super reliable, has fantastic reliability, and is good enough for most people, even with children.

No one's going to steal any Prius for a joy ride, and for old used models, if you get a dent in the door, who cares?

Treasury’s 2019 suvery says the typical used price is between $9,000 to $15,000. For the 20 used models in 2015 to 2018, it is by far the cleanest at 80 CO2 g/km, about half that of a small ICE car.

Even replacing the batteries is not a show stopper, if the price is right. Prius batteries range from $1,000 to $3,500, mostly dependent on the warranty.

Given the bathtub curve, I'd go for the shorter warranty.

I know this is in the EV thread, so likely not to be a popular post.

My next car purchase will be an EV, but again I'm waiting on some additional government subsidy, beyond the obviously substantial fuel tax savings (somewhere around $10,000 tax saving over the lifetime of an EV)

 

Uh, this is what the feebate proposal always was? You'll get an $8k subsidy for any EV that's under $80k.


 
 
 
 


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  #2411761 3-Feb-2020 07:31
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Obraik:

 

 

 

I'm well aware what price parity is, and I've mentioned three times now that no, price parity doesn't exist at the entry level/low cost bracket such as what you're comparing an ICE Kona to. When you get to the premium ICE brands such as BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc then yeah, price parity is basically there now. An Audi eTron and an ICE Audi Q8 are basically the same price.

 

What you've mentioned for Tesla is only true of Full Self Driving, the feature which currently means that the car can change lanes on its own on the motorway with the eventual goal that it will be able to drive you from home to work and back without you needing to actively control the car (if Elon is to be believed, this latter functionality will be with us by the end of the year). I think we should be able to agree that self driving is in a different category to other features like dash cam functionality and auto high beams. Any new features outside of self driving that Tesla creates in software updates is automatically available to their cars for free.

 

If you want to stick on points about panel gaps and paint issues then that's up to you but both Tesla and the world has moved on as these issues you mentioned are from years ago now when Tesla was ramping up. Nearly all car reviewers compare the Model 3 with the BMW 3 series.

 

From a performance point of view, a $10k Leaf is going to perform a lot better than any of the low budget new vehicles. However, I appreciate that if one is shopping for a new vehicle that they might not be wanting to consider a second hand vehicle.

 

 

I know you know what price parity is, the issue is what is entry level. I would have thought a small, low range EV was entry level, an $80k Kona is not entry level, after all, who sees an $80k car as entry level? I'm looking at this from a general public who want to buy an EV POV. Yes Audi and its ICE equivalent have parity, but they are $150k cars. Which right now leaves  parity out of reach for most people, the Kona example is a poor buy, and the entry level, i.e. lowest price EV's are too small and too low range unless all you do is school trips and work. While EVs are great and will do their bit to save the world, they would seem to remain niche for quite some time yet, while hybrids will gain a lot more traction, a lot sooner, so it may well be them that does the heavy lifting, saving the world-wise

 

Appreciate the clarifictions re Tesla


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  #2411767 3-Feb-2020 07:58
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tdgeek:

 

While EVs are great and will do their bit to save the world, they would seem to remain niche for quite some time yet, while hybrids will gain a lot more traction, a lot sooner, so it may well be them that does the heavy lifting, saving the world-wise

 

 

 

 

Personally if I was making policy decisions, given the relative purchase numbers, I would have opted for a higher sin tax on SUVs - many of which are driven around to do the shopping, where your entry-level EV can do easily as well - and a much higher rebate on EVs than has been proposed. Well, to be fair, I was critical of just about every aspect of the clean car initiative, but that's probably the headline takeaway.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


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  #2411768 3-Feb-2020 08:03
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SaltyNZ:

 

tdgeek:

 

While EVs are great and will do their bit to save the world, they would seem to remain niche for quite some time yet, while hybrids will gain a lot more traction, a lot sooner, so it may well be them that does the heavy lifting, saving the world-wise

 

 

 

 

Personally if I was making policy decisions, given the relative purchase numbers, I would have opted for a higher sin tax on SUVs - many of which are driven around to do the shopping, where your entry-level EV can do easily as well - and a much higher rebate on EVs than has been proposed. Well, to be fair, I was critical of just about every aspect of the clean car initiative, but that's probably the headline takeaway.

 

 

I can agree with that. As long as the price premium is reasonable, I'd support higher sin taxes, for any ICE where there is an EV equivalent available.


662 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411795 3-Feb-2020 09:23
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tdgeek:

 

I know you know what price parity is, the issue is what is entry level. I would have thought a small, low range EV was entry level, an $80k Kona is not entry level, after all, who sees an $80k car as entry level? I'm looking at this from a general public who want to buy an EV POV. Yes Audi and its ICE equivalent have parity, but they are $150k cars. Which right now leaves  parity out of reach for most people, the Kona example is a poor buy, and the entry level, i.e. lowest price EV's are too small and too low range unless all you do is school trips and work.

 

 

I mean, that's basically what I said...


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  #2411798 3-Feb-2020 09:34
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

I know you know what price parity is, the issue is what is entry level. I would have thought a small, low range EV was entry level, an $80k Kona is not entry level, after all, who sees an $80k car as entry level? I'm looking at this from a general public who want to buy an EV POV. Yes Audi and its ICE equivalent have parity, but they are $150k cars. Which right now leaves  parity out of reach for most people, the Kona example is a poor buy, and the entry level, i.e. lowest price EV's are too small and too low range unless all you do is school trips and work.

 

 

I mean, that's basically what I said...

 

 

You never said if an $80k Kona is entry level, but doesn't matter

 

The conclusion that you forgot to show in my post is "While EVs are great and will do their bit to save the world, they would seem to remain niche for quite some time yet, while hybrids will gain a lot more traction, a lot sooner, so it may well be them that does the heavy lifting, saving the world-wise"


 
 
 
 


662 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411806 3-Feb-2020 10:02
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tdgeek:

 

You never said if an $80k Kona is entry level, but doesn't matter

 

 

Re-read the first sentence in this reply

 

 


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  #2411808 3-Feb-2020 10:12
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

You never said if an $80k Kona is entry level, but doesn't matter

 

 

Re-read the first sentence in this reply

 

 

 

 

Yes, that is what it sounded like. So, an $80,000 Kona is entry level. EV's are therefore just a niche market not the climate change answer, despite the never ending rhetoric. Hybrids will pick up that slack, as they are the EV's that offset the price point for mass uptake


662 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411819 3-Feb-2020 10:25
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tdgeek:

 

Yes, that is what it sounded like. So, an $80,000 Kona is entry level. EV's are therefore just a niche market not the climate change answer, despite the never ending rhetoric. Hybrids will pick up that slack, as they are the EV's that offset the price point for mass uptake

 

 

An $80000 Kona EV is probably more midrange than entry but sure, it doesn't match the midrange ICE cost. Hybrids are a stopgap until budget EVs become available but even today the prices are getting close. A new Prius is $40k and an MG EV is $50k - if the $8k subsidy was in play today then that would be $42k.


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  #2411844 3-Feb-2020 10:49
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Yes, that is what it sounded like. So, an $80,000 Kona is entry level. EV's are therefore just a niche market not the climate change answer, despite the never ending rhetoric. Hybrids will pick up that slack, as they are the EV's that offset the price point for mass uptake

 

 

An $80000 Kona EV is probably more midrange than entry but sure, it doesn't match the midrange ICE cost. Hybrids are a stopgap until budget EVs become available but even today the prices are getting close. A new Prius is $40k and an MG EV is $50k - if the $8k subsidy was in play today then that would be $42k.

 

 

The MG EV is a nice price, but its quite an average car. Just over $20k cheaper than the base Tesla actually makes the MG seem overpriced.

 

So, car wise, again you are paying more for less. The MG EV is very very average car. When a car like the MG becomes a really quite nice car, at $42k, better range and features, then its time.

 

Its only annecdotal, but I know many who bought hybrids in recent months. Mainly new, but also used. There may be a phsycological thing there, feels safer to be a "regular" car with cost saving hybrid tech than a "new fangled tech" like the EV? Just an observation. Or it may be just range and initial cost based


662 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411847 3-Feb-2020 10:53
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tdgeek:

 

The MG EV is a nice price, but its quite an average car. Just over $20k cheaper than the base Tesla actually makes the MG seem overpriced.

 

So, car wise, again you are paying more for less. The MG EV is very very average car. When a car like the MG becomes a really quite nice car, at $42k, better range and features, then its time.

 

Its only annecdotal, but I know many who bought hybrids in recent months. Mainly new, but also used. There may be a phsycological thing there, feels safer to be a "regular" car with cost saving hybrid tech than a "new fangled tech" like the EV? Just an observation. Or it may be just range and initial cost based

 

 

It's around $30k cheaper than a Tesla. The MG is an average car but so is the Prius. 


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  #2411852 3-Feb-2020 11:01
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

The MG EV is a nice price, but its quite an average car. Just over $20k cheaper than the base Tesla actually makes the MG seem overpriced.

 

So, car wise, again you are paying more for less. The MG EV is very very average car. When a car like the MG becomes a really quite nice car, at $42k, better range and features, then its time.

 

Its only annecdotal, but I know many who bought hybrids in recent months. Mainly new, but also used. There may be a phsycological thing there, feels safer to be a "regular" car with cost saving hybrid tech than a "new fangled tech" like the EV? Just an observation. Or it may be just range and initial cost based

 

 

It's around $30k cheaper than a Tesla. The MG is an average car but so is the Prius. 

 

 

$73900 less $50100 seems closer to just over 20k than around 30k.

 

The Prius is an average car, the MG is very very average. At best


662 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2411870 3-Feb-2020 12:04
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tdgeek:

 

$73900 less $50100 seems closer to just over 20k than around 30k.

 

The Prius is an average car, the MG is very very average. At best

 

 

A SR+ Model 3 is $78k.

 

What in your opinion makes the MG "very very average"?


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  #2411875 3-Feb-2020 12:28
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

$73900 less $50100 seems closer to just over 20k than around 30k.

 

The Prius is an average car, the MG is very very average. At best

 

 

A SR+ Model 3 is $78k.

 

What in your opinion makes the MG "very very average"?

 

 

An Oct 10 NZ articled stated the Tesla starts at 73900

 

Read a couple of reviews, noisy, steering, ride quality, slow UI.


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