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Obraik
785 posts

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  #2422445 17-Feb-2020 14:22
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

Anytime something positive is brought up about EVs, you move the goal post. The Model 3 is arguably a mass-market sedan since it's at the top of the private registration charts for that class. I don't really care if that's a topic you weren't discussing, this is how discussions work - one topic flows into another, as it has.  If you also want to brand me as an "EV evangelist" because stating numbers upsets you then so be it.

 

 

My reply seems to have gone. I don't move a goal post, I was discussing mass market cars. Someone else mentioned people's car. So thats what at least two of us see as mass market. If you wish to deem that a 75k Tesla is a mass market car, that's fine.

 

Topics can flow from one thing to another, that's called change, but when you have some need to answer question on mass market cars with the "an" car, which we all know is your Tesla, then that's quite strange. Although that was my mistake as I didn't realise that a $75k car is off course a mass market car, a car for the masses, the people's car. Off course it is, yep :-)

 

Stating numbers doesnt upset me, hand picking ones that make a false point do though, that's misleading. I thought only politicians do that. But get back to me when "any" EV is matching ICE registrations. I will in fact be very pleased, as I do wish EV's to progress in NZ. Yes ALL EV's not just the ones I love.....

 

 

You were the someone that mentioned "people's car"

 

Stating numbers clearly does upset you because I've shown you the numbers that backs up what I've said, yet you're accusing me of making this statement because I own that car. You're ignoring the presented facts and running with your own narrative, as you usually do. You're asking to be shown when any EV matches ICE registrations and shown you have been, yet you're putting your fingers in your ears (or covering your eyes in this format) and trying your best to pretend that it's a bias.


tdgeek
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  #2422456 17-Feb-2020 14:51
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Obraik:

 

 

 

You were the someone that mentioned "people's car"

 

Stating numbers clearly does upset you because I've shown you the numbers that backs up what I've said, yet you're accusing me of making this statement because I own that car. You're ignoring the presented facts and running with your own narrative, as you usually do. You're asking to be shown when any EV matches ICE registrations and shown you have been, yet you're putting your fingers in your ears (or covering your eyes in this format) and trying your best to pretend that it's a bias.

 

 

Crazy stuff. Why do you keep saying I'm upset. Funny. Ludicrous. Your bias is VERY clear lets get that out of the way, and its no issue to me, apart from a discussion breaker. If you want to compare rego's of a Tesla 3 with a genre that no one buys and of a selected group that's ok too. How is the SUV comparison of the cheaper cars? I prefer to look at the real world how that will evolve for the next few years, thats for those that are concerned with climate change

 

I said ALL EV's.

 

It actually seems to me that I want all EV's to be successful more than you. When myself and one other mentioned peoples car/mass market you go Tesla hunting again. BTW I didnt use people's car, another did as I mentioned, and I used it later

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


Technofreak
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  #2422494 17-Feb-2020 15:02
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Obraik:

 

You were the someone that mentioned "people's car"

 

Stating numbers clearly does upset you because I've shown you the numbers that backs up what I've said, yet you're accusing me of making this statement because I own that car. You're ignoring the presented facts and running with your own narrative, as you usually do. You're asking to be shown when any EV matches ICE registrations and shown you have been, yet you're putting your fingers in your ears (or covering your eyes in this format) and trying your best to pretend that it's a bias.

 

 

 

I'm not exactly sure I understand what you've said that you have back up with numbers.

 

There is no question EV's are currently a niche market vehicle. For most people they do not meet their needs or are far too expensive. They are most definitely not main stream.

 

I looks to me you have cherry picked data to prove a point. You've compared EV sales with sales from a vehicle group (medium to large sedans - family car) which is rapidly shrinking in the New Zealand market. You have compared a new evolving market with a sunset market. This isn't a fair comparison in my opinion. Why did you not also include the types of vehicles that are being bought in place of the traditional family sedan?

 

As Winston Churchill was reputed to have said there is lies, damn lies and then there's statistics.

 

I'm not for one moment suggesting you are telling "lies" but you are certainly looking through rose tinted spectacles.

 

I don't have more recent figures at hand but the new vehicles sales to the end of Oct 2019 didn't show any EV's in the top 15. Perhaps there's been a blip since then but I very much doubt on a rolling 12 month average EV's will be any where near matching ICE registrations.





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Obraik
785 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2422495 17-Feb-2020 15:09
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

You were the someone that mentioned "people's car"

 

Stating numbers clearly does upset you because I've shown you the numbers that backs up what I've said, yet you're accusing me of making this statement because I own that car. You're ignoring the presented facts and running with your own narrative, as you usually do. You're asking to be shown when any EV matches ICE registrations and shown you have been, yet you're putting your fingers in your ears (or covering your eyes in this format) and trying your best to pretend that it's a bias.

 

 

Crazy stuff. Why do you keep saying I'm upset. Funny. Ludicrous. Your bias is VERY clear lets get that out of the way, and its no issue to me, apart from a discussion breaker. If you want to compare rego's of a Tesla 3 with a genre that no one buys and of a selected group that's ok too. How is the SUV comparison of the cheaper cars? I prefer to look at the real world how that will evolve for the next few years, thats for those that are concerned with climate change

 

I said ALL EV's.

 

It actually seems to me that I want all EV's to be successful more than you. When myself and one other mentioned peoples car/mass market you go Tesla hunting again. BTW I didnt use people's car, another did as I mentioned, and I used it later

 

 

 

 

 

 

Speaking of crazy stuff, why would I NOT compare the sales of a sedan with sales of other sedans?  Is comparing like for like not a fair and reasonable comparison? If someone is buying a SUV they're not going to be looking at a sedan.


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2422502 17-Feb-2020 15:15
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Technofreak:

 

I'm not exactly sure I understand what you've said that you have back up with numbers.

 

There is no question EV's are currently a niche market vehicle. For most people they do not meet their needs or are far too expensive. They are most definitely not main stream.

 

I looks to me you have cherry picked data to prove a point. You've compared EV sales with sales from a vehicle group (medium to large sedans - family car) which is rapidly shrinking in the New Zealand market. You have compared a new evolving market with a sunset market. This isn't a fair comparison in my opinion. Why did you not also include the types of vehicles that are being bought in place of the traditional family sedan?

 

As Winston Churchill was reputed to have said there is lies, damn lies and then there's statistics.

 

I'm not for one moment suggesting you are telling "lies" but you are certainly looking through rose tinted spectacles.

 

I don't have more recent figures at hand but the new vehicles sales to the end of Oct 2019 didn't show any EV's in the top 15. Perhaps there's been a blip since then but I very much doubt on a rolling 12 month average EV's will be any where near matching ICE registrations.

 

 

As I've mentioned above, why would you compares sales of vehicles from different classes to judge its popularity? Someone who is buying an SUV is not going to be looking at the sedan category - a Model 3 was no more a likely option to that buyer than a Holden Commodore.

 

As for the numbers, if you go back a few posts to what I posted yesterday you'll see the links to the OpenData registration stats. At the time I linked to those for the Model 3, 3 Series and A4 but it's not difficult to change the filters on the page to match with other vehicles. 

 

 


afe66
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  #2422503 17-Feb-2020 15:15
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Give it a break guys.
It's getting boring.

tdgeek
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  #2422504 17-Feb-2020 15:16
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Obraik:

 

 

 

Speaking of crazy stuff, why would I NOT compare the sales of a sedan with sales of other sedans?  Is comparing like for like not a fair and reasonable comparison? If someone is buying a SUV they're not going to be looking at a sedan.

 

 

LOL. Ok, LOL. You can as already stated, compare something thats new and popular but low numbers with a dead genre. Is that like for like? 


 
 
 
 


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2422506 17-Feb-2020 15:20
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

Speaking of crazy stuff, why would I NOT compare the sales of a sedan with sales of other sedans?  Is comparing like for like not a fair and reasonable comparison? If someone is buying a SUV they're not going to be looking at a sedan.

 

 

LOL. Ok, LOL. You can as already stated, compare something thats new and popular but low numbers with a dead genre. Is that like for like? 

 

 

So, if you're going to compare how popular the new iPhone 11 Pro is vs other phones do you compare it to sales of the Samsung Galaxy Tab S6?


frednz
1434 posts

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  #2422533 17-Feb-2020 15:46
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wellygary:

 

Obraik:

 

On further investigation I need to correct myself. Looking at the OpenData page and looking at other private registrations of Sedans/Saloons such as the Holden Commodore, Toyota Camry, Mazda 6, etc it's also outselling those much cheaper options. The only other to outsell it is the Mondeo (although it's classed as a Hatchback). One could say that an EV is one of the most popular private new sedan in NZ for January 2020.

 

 

Possibly,

 

But its a rather pyrrhic victory as NZers don't buy Sedans in any great numbers, its either smaller hatches (corolla etc) or SUVS

 

Here are the top 15 sales models ( ex rental) for Jam 2020... ( from the MIA)

 

1 TOYOTA RAV4 569

 

2 KIA SELTOS 430

 

3 SUZUKI SWIFT 289

 

4 KIA SPORTAGE 280

 

5 NISSAN QASHQAI 270

 

6 MAZDA CX-5 254

 

7 TOYOTA COROLLA 245

 

8 MITSUBISHI OUTLANDER 232

 

9 MITSUBISHI ASX 199

 

10 HYUNDAI KONA 185

 

11 NISSAN X-TRAIL 145

 

12 HOLDEN ACADIA 142

 

13 HOLDEN TRAX 139

 

14 HYUNDAI TUCSON 137

 

15 VOLKSWAGEN TIGUAN 137

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks, and if you look at the link below, you get the "full" picture:

 

https://www.mia.org.nz/Sales-Data/Vehicle-Sales

 

It must be of concern to the Government that out of a total of 9099 new vehicle sales for January 2020, only 140 of those are "pure" EVs, and plug-in hybrids are 88. In other words, less than 3% of new vehicle sales can be defined as electric vehicles.

 

Sure, Tesla is doing well in that of the 140 BEV sales, 59 were Teslas. And the Hyundai Kona sold 38 units.

 

But, ICE vehicles continue to pour in, and EVs just aren't gaining the traction we need to help our fight against climate change.

 

It's the overall total numbers that matter if you're looking at the "big" picture (IMHO)!


gareth41
645 posts

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  #2422534 17-Feb-2020 15:49
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afe66: Give it a break guys.
It's getting boring.

 

 

 

Sitting with some popcorn watching


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2422544 17-Feb-2020 16:01
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frednz:

 

 

 

Thanks, and if you look at the link below, you get the "full" picture:

 

https://www.mia.org.nz/Sales-Data/Vehicle-Sales

 

It must be of concern to the Government that out of a total of 9099 new vehicle sales for January 2020, only 140 of those are "pure" EVs, and plug-in hybrids are 88. In other words, less than 3% of new vehicle sales can be defined as electric vehicles.

 

Sure, Tesla is doing well in that of the 140 BEV sales, 59 were Teslas. And the Hyundai Kona sold 38 units.

 

But, ICE vehicles continue to pour in, and EVs just aren't gaining the traction we need to help our fight against climate change.

 

It's the overall total numbers that matter if you're looking at the "big" picture (IMHO)!

 

 

Sure, there's no debate that EV penetration in the top classes (SUV and Utes) needs to pick up. Once those options actually come to market over the next 12-24 months we'll have to see how they're performing. With the MG, Model Y and Mustang Mach-E entering the sub $80k market potentially combined with the $8k subsidy there should start to be inroads made in the SUV and crossover market. In the Ute class, we should be seeing the Cybertruck and Rivian during that same period, along with whatever Ford and Great Wall is doing. 


tdgeek
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  #2422618 17-Feb-2020 16:49
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frednz:

 

Thanks, and if you look at the link below, you get the "full" picture:

 

https://www.mia.org.nz/Sales-Data/Vehicle-Sales

 

It must be of concern to the Government that out of a total of 9099 new vehicle sales for January 2020, only 140 of those are "pure" EVs, and plug-in hybrids are 88. In other words, less than 3% of new vehicle sales can be defined as electric vehicles.

 

Sure, Tesla is doing well in that of the 140 BEV sales, 59 were Teslas. And the Hyundai Kona sold 38 units.

 

But, ICE vehicles continue to pour in, and EVs just aren't gaining the traction we need to help our fight against climate change.

 

It's the overall total numbers that matter if you're looking at the "big" picture (IMHO)!

 

 

I dont think its a Govt problem or a Govt cause. People are the cause. They aren't buying for a host of reasons. Not enough models to choose from, price premium, they can see from the media that new models are coming so lets wait, the subsidy will have some holding off. Hath lots of models here thou people shall buy. Its not ready enough yet. 


jarledb
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  #2422636 17-Feb-2020 17:14
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tdgeek:

 

I dont think its a Govt problem or a Govt cause. People are the cause. They aren't buying for a host of reasons. Not enough models to choose from, price premium, they can see from the media that new models are coming so lets wait, the subsidy will have some holding off. Hath lots of models here thou people shall buy. Its not ready enough yet. 

 

 

Based on the numbers it doesn't seem like there are less EVs being sold, even with the subsidies coming. But I think the subsidies are too little too late.

 

There will come a time when there is price parity, and that will mean EVs take over as the normal car, in the meantime it's important to make it more affordable to buy EVs through subsidie etc.


tdgeek
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  #2422657 17-Feb-2020 18:00
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jarledb:

 

tdgeek:

 

I dont think its a Govt problem or a Govt cause. People are the cause. They aren't buying for a host of reasons. Not enough models to choose from, price premium, they can see from the media that new models are coming so lets wait, the subsidy will have some holding off. Hath lots of models here thou people shall buy. Its not ready enough yet. 

 

 

Based on the numbers it doesn't seem like there are less EVs being sold, even with the subsidies coming. But I think the subsidies are too little too late.

 

There will come a time when there is price parity, and that will mean EVs take over as the normal car, in the meantime it's important to make it more affordable to buy EVs through subsidie etc.

 

 

I didn't say they are selling less. They are selling, but in low numbers. More choice, better price will help, and subsidies. 


frednz
1434 posts

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  #2423002 18-Feb-2020 09:49
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tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

Thanks, and if you look at the link below, you get the "full" picture:

 

https://www.mia.org.nz/Sales-Data/Vehicle-Sales

 

It must be of concern to the Government that out of a total of 9099 new vehicle sales for January 2020, only 140 of those are "pure" EVs, and plug-in hybrids are 88. In other words, less than 3% of new vehicle sales can be defined as electric vehicles.

 

Sure, Tesla is doing well in that of the 140 BEV sales, 59 were Teslas. And the Hyundai Kona sold 38 units.

 

But, ICE vehicles continue to pour in, and EVs just aren't gaining the traction we need to help our fight against climate change.

 

It's the overall total numbers that matter if you're looking at the "big" picture (IMHO)!

 

 

I dont think its a Govt problem or a Govt cause. People are the cause. They aren't buying for a host of reasons. Not enough models to choose from, price premium, they can see from the media that new models are coming so lets wait, the subsidy will have some holding off. Hath lots of models here thou people shall buy. Its not ready enough yet. 

 

 

In some countries where Governments have taken strong action by way of introducing EV subsidies etc there has been a much higher uptake of EVs relative to petrol vehicles than in New Zealand. You could say this is because some overseas Governments have seen this as a Government problem that can help be "solved" by specific Government action, such as subsidies etc. This is principally because some Governments are taking stronger action on climate change etc than we are here. 

 

So, if Governments fail to take decisive action to encourage the uptake of EVs, then you could say that they are part of the cause of the continuing high inflow of petrol vehicles. At least NZ has introduced a policy of providing subsidies on EVs in the future, but we have been very slow to get going compared with several other countries. 

 

At the moment, about 97 out of every 100 new vehicles purchased in NZ are petrol driven vehicles, and this situation must be of concern to the Government as that's why they have finally decided to try and do something about it! When the import of petrol vehicles is banned altogether, then we'll be getting somewhere, but the worldwide shortage of EVs and their high prices means this won't happen anytime soon.


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