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Obraik
785 posts

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  #2423830 19-Feb-2020 11:13
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

The big expensive SUVs with their high powered engines are bigger emitters than the likes of a Mazda CX5 - one Range Rover Sport can emit as much as two and a bit CX5s. So getting buyers of those types of SUVs into an EV equivalent is of some benefit.

 

Obviously, lower priced EV SUVs are also important, since there were 2800 CX-5's registered last year vs 417 Range Rover Sports.

 

 

Yes,but we are talking drop in a bucket of what is already just drops. Very high hanging fruit there.

 

 

Can't get the cheaper EVs without the expensive ones paving the way.


SaltyNZ
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  #2423837 19-Feb-2020 11:21
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tdgeek:

 

wellygary:

 

Those Marble Chips can be terribly slippery in the wet....... :)

 

 

Just engrave Look At Me on each of them  :-)

 

 

 

 

Perhaps they should consider switching to diamonds, or at least some sort of poor-man's mixed precious gemstone substitute, for better visibility.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2423841 19-Feb-2020 11:27
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Obraik:

 

Can't get the cheaper EVs without the expensive ones paving the way.

 

 

That's your worst defensive effort yet. I don't recall a $160,000 Leaf from way back last decade


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2423888 19-Feb-2020 11:50
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

Can't get the cheaper EVs without the expensive ones paving the way.

 

 

That's your worst defensive effort yet. I don't recall a $160,000 Leaf from way back last decade

 

 

You quite often like to post that EV options need to be cheaper than the Leaf. So is the Leaf a cheap car or an expensive car?


tdgeek
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  #2423897 19-Feb-2020 12:03
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Obraik:

 

 

 

You quite often like to post that EV options need to be cheaper than the Leaf. So is the Leaf a cheap car or an expensive car?

 

 

Making things up again?

 

Ive never said an EV, any EV, needs to be cheaper than the Leaf that's a very bizarre thing to say. What are you on? When I have mentioined an EV that has too much price premium you always suggested get an old Leaf as its cheaper.  Its always buy a Leaf.

 

As to my comment, the Leaf has been around for many years, its managed to pave the way quite well don't you think? Without being an EV in the $160,000 price point.


Obraik
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  #2423947 19-Feb-2020 12:21
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tdgeek:

 

Making things up again?

 

Ive never said an EV, any EV, needs to be cheaper than the Leaf that's a very bizarre thing to say. What are you on? When I have mentioined an EV that has too much price premium you always suggested get an old Leaf as its cheaper.  Its always buy a Leaf.

 

As to my comment, the Leaf has been around for many years, its managed to pave the way quite well don't you think? Without being an EV in the $160,000 price point.

 

 

You have quite often said that EVs need to get to "mass market" prices. You've pointed out that a Leaf is not at price parity and you've pointed out that a Kona is not at price parity.  My claim of "you can't have cheap EVs without the expensive EVs paving the way" was in reference to all EVs, not specifically the Model X. However, without the more expensive Model S & X we wouldn't have the cheaper Model 3 & Y. Without the Model 3 & Y we wouldn't have the possibility of the future Tesla "city car". From a non-Tesla perspective, you wouldn't have the new VW ID3 without the more expensive e-Golf before it.

 

We're not going to get to cheaper EVs without the higher priced options. They're required to fund the R&D and build the economies of scale to bring EV prices down. So to imply they're irrelevant is an ignorant view.


maxeon
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  #2423955 19-Feb-2020 12:29
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tdgeek
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  #2423960 19-Feb-2020 12:39
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Making things up again?

 

Ive never said an EV, any EV, needs to be cheaper than the Leaf that's a very bizarre thing to say. What are you on? When I have mentioined an EV that has too much price premium you always suggested get an old Leaf as its cheaper.  Its always buy a Leaf.

 

As to my comment, the Leaf has been around for many years, its managed to pave the way quite well don't you think? Without being an EV in the $160,000 price point.

 

 

You have quite often said that EVs need to get to "mass market" prices. You've pointed out that a Leaf is not at price parity and you've pointed out that a Kona is not at price parity.  My claim of "you can't have cheap EVs without the expensive EVs paving the way" was in reference to all EVs, not specifically the Model X. However, without the more expensive Model S & X we wouldn't have the cheaper Model 3 & Y. Without the Model 3 & Y we wouldn't have the possibility of the future Tesla "city car". From a non-Tesla perspective, you wouldn't have the new VW ID3 without the more expensive e-Golf before it.

 

We're not going to get to cheaper EVs without the higher priced options. They're required to fund the R&D and build the economies of scale to bring EV prices down. So to imply they're irrelevant is an ignorant view.

 

 

Dont get upset again. You were talking about $160,000 cars, yes as you say they are expensive EV's, now you say you meant all EV's. If tesla needs to have expensive EV's to pave the way, for them, that's fine. Nissan didn't, out come the Leaf, many years ago. I dont see a $160,000 Kona paving the way for the Kona EV, the equivalent of its ICE version. So its not an ignorant view, there are examples everywhere, as you will see as more manufactures join in. If you just want to focus on the upmarket brands, that's fine too, another example of answering a question that wasn't asked, again. I'm not sure they have the numbers out there to help CC as much, compared with the mass market brands, based on what Ive always seen on the roads. Im looking at it from a CC aspect, thats where we differ


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2423966 19-Feb-2020 12:47
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tdgeek:

 

Dont get upset again. You were talking about $160,000 cars, yes as you say they are expensive EV's, now you say you meant all EV's. If tesla needs to have expensive EV's to pave the way, for them, that's fine. Nissan didn't, out come the Leaf, many years ago. I dont see a $160,000 Kona paving the way for the Kona EV, the equivalent of its ICE version. So its not an ignorant view, there are examples everywhere, as you will see as more manufactures join in. If you just want to focus on the upmarket brands, that's fine too, another example of answering a question that wasn't asked, again. I'm not sure they have the numbers out there to help CC as much, compared with the mass market brands, based on what Ive always seen on the roads. Im looking at it from a CC aspect, thats where we differ

 

 

Oh boy...your fixation on certain specific points, taking them out of context and then putting words in my mouth is quite amusing.

 

Let me simplify for you. You will not get a Kona-like EV at the price of a ICE Kona without todays expensive EV Kona.

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2423968 19-Feb-2020 12:48
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maxeon:

 

 

 

That's a good plan. Especially for a newcomer to the market. Established players are, well, established, so they focus on adding this option to their existing market, which is what we see a lot right now.


maxeon
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  #2423981 19-Feb-2020 12:56
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tdgeek:

 

That's a good plan. Especially for a newcomer to the market. Established players are, well, established, so they focus on adding this option to their existing market, which is what we see a lot right now.

 

 

Established players (specifically the high end manufacturers) perhaps might not need to embark on the same path? Although that does seem like what they are doing! Maybe due to the battery demand?


tdgeek
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  #2423984 19-Feb-2020 13:00
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Dont get upset again. You were talking about $160,000 cars, yes as you say they are expensive EV's, now you say you meant all EV's. If tesla needs to have expensive EV's to pave the way, for them, that's fine. Nissan didn't, out come the Leaf, many years ago. I dont see a $160,000 Kona paving the way for the Kona EV, the equivalent of its ICE version. So its not an ignorant view, there are examples everywhere, as you will see as more manufactures join in. If you just want to focus on the upmarket brands, that's fine too, another example of answering a question that wasn't asked, again. I'm not sure they have the numbers out there to help CC as much, compared with the mass market brands, based on what Ive always seen on the roads. Im looking at it from a CC aspect, thats where we differ

 

 

Oh boy...your fixation on certain specific points, taking them out of context and then putting words in my mouth is quite amusing.

 

Let me simplify for you. You will not get a Kona-like EV at the price of a ICE Kona without todays expensive EV Kona.

 

 

 

 

Your accusing me of context issues? LOL. I dont think you recall where this started

 

You started off yakking about $160,000 cars, re read if you forgot already. No, we dont need them to pave the way. Tesla has and fair enough. If you want to "compare" a $160,000 upmarket brand, with a Kona and now call Kona also expensive, thats fine, just another moving target or "adjustment" to your arguments. A Kona EV is a standard, base, mass market model that has a price premium, to cover R+D and battery cost, as has always been the case for new products. Thats just plain basic knowledge. Its not your $160,000 upmarket model by any stretch. 

 

Bizarre,and more time wasting


tdgeek
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  #2423986 19-Feb-2020 13:08
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maxeon:

 

tdgeek:

 

That's a good plan. Especially for a newcomer to the market. Established players are, well, established, so they focus on adding this option to their existing market, which is what we see a lot right now.

 

 

Established players (specifically the high end manufacturers) perhaps might not need to embark on the same path? Although that does seem like what they are doing! Maybe due to the battery demand?

 

 

If you are an upmarket manufacturer, you give your market what they want, money isnt an object for their customer base. You can throw in your extra value premium product they will buy it, thats the game they play. They are paying for exclusivity. The mass market, the Toyota's, Honda's etc, their market isn't the same, money does matter. They can only afford the utility, not the exclusivity. So Kona, being one example has its $40k ICE it won't bring out a $160k EV to pave the way, it will bring out the cheapest EV it can get away with, taking into account R+D and batteries. So you have an 80k Kona EV.


Dugimodo
162 posts

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  #2423990 19-Feb-2020 13:13
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Tesla started from scatch, Nissan already made cars. That said a Leaf is not a cheap car, it's priced in NZ about $20K higher than something like a corolla (depending which corolla) which is fairly equivalent.

 

 

 

I own a 2013 leaf and it's great for commuting around town but prior to that I owned a 2013 corolla and something that's immediately apparent from owning both is that if you can only have one car the corolla is far more versatile and a better choice for most. It can tow a trailer, go on long road trips, refill in minutes, and still do everything else a leaf does - just at a higher running cost. The same can not be said th e other way around.

 

 

 

So yes as an EV enthusiast and an owner of a used Leaf I still agree that they are still too expensive for widespread adoption. You can buy brand new small petrol cars in the $25-$30k range quite easily. There is currently no EV competition in that bracket. A model Y might be a good SUV, but there are far cheaper petrol and diesel alternatives with no direct EV competition.

 

 

 

Until EVs reach price parity across the whole range of common popular vehicle types they will not displace ICE vehicles.

 

 

 

A lot of people's concerns regarding EVs are overstated and easily answered by just using one for a while, the concern over price however is not. I think we are still probably many years from them outnumbering ICE vehicles on the road. We are at the beginning.

 

 

 

Unfortunately for those touting EVs as part of the solution for climate change the change will be slow and take a long time, unless something radical happens.


tdgeek
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  #2424003 19-Feb-2020 13:25
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Dugimodo:

 

Tesla started from scatch, Nissan already made cars. That said a Leaf is not a cheap car, it's priced in NZ about $20K higher than something like a corolla (depending which corolla) which is fairly equivalent.

 

 

 

I own a 2013 leaf and it's great for commuting around town but prior to that I owned a 2013 corolla and something that's immediately apparent from owning both is that if you can only have one car the corolla is far more versatile and a better choice for most. It can tow a trailer, go on long road trips, refill in minutes, and still do everything else a leaf does - just at a higher running cost. The same can not be said th e other way around.

 

 

 

So yes as an EV enthusiast and an owner of a used Leaf I still agree that they are still too expensive for widespread adoption. You can buy brand new small petrol cars in the $25-$30k range quite easily. There is currently no EV competition in that bracket. A model Y might be a good SUV, but there are far cheaper petrol and diesel alternatives with no direct EV competition.

 

 

 

Until EVs reach price parity across the whole range of common popular vehicle types they will not displace ICE vehicles.

 

 

 

A lot of people's concerns regarding EVs are overstated and easily answered by just using one for a while, the concern over price however is not. I think we are still probably many years from them outnumbering ICE vehicles on the road. We are at the beginning.

 

 

 

Unfortunately for those touting EVs as part of the solution for climate change the change will be slow and take a long time, unless something radical happens.

 

 

Agree fully. While I don't own an EV I am enthusiastic about them. The discussion you came in on however was about another topic, $160,000 cars paving the way, which Nissan is another example why thats mostly not the case. The Leaf has a price premium. That premium is more noticeable as the base value of the car is low. A 64kW battery for a Leaf is the same price as a 64kW battery for a Ferrari, so the Leaf bears a large % hit. That will all change over time


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