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tdgeek
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  #2425148 21-Feb-2020 19:30
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Ok, here is  a pertinent piece of text, I will translate.

 

National MP Chris Bishop described the impasse as "an utter humiliation of Julie Anne Genter and the Greens".

 

"Despite all the rhetoric this Government has exactly the same policy when it comes to EVs as the previous Government," he said.

 

Bishop said there was more that could be done to decarbonise the public transport fleet.

 

"It's good the Government is seeing sense on the car tax which would have a negative effect on emissions and would have a punitive effect people who can't make the switch," he said.

 

Bold 1 means The Coalition, i.e. Peters doesn't want farmers touched. National, similarly, also has no green policy.

 

Bold 2 means BS. Of course anything that penalises ICE cars and benefits lower fuel cars such as Swifts, Hybrids and EV's is beneficial. 

 

The simple, and its VERY simple approach is to exclude any vehicle genre that has no EV equivalent. That impasse should be relatively brief. To account for farmers. ICE owners who have a boat, well just hang onto the ICE and wait. 

 

It also means Labour has to decide how green it wants to be. Do they want to be re elected or be voted in??


mattwnz
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  #2425149 21-Feb-2020 19:34
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tdgeek:

 

 

 

Plus, apparently people in NZ hate new taxes, so on that note, it should be canned???  Lets see what Nationals green policies come out at.

 

 

 

 

There is a good reason NZers hate new taxes, and that is due to historically new taxes being changed after their introduction, to extract more money from taxpayers. Many taxes get brought in because they initially don't appear too bad. eg GST was 10% when it was first introduced. But governments then change the tax to extract more money from tax payers, as they can easily do that without needing to introduce a 'new tax'.. So would a 15% GST rate be as palatable as a 10% gst rate, if the GST rate had initially started at 15%. That is one reasons why CGT tax will be so difficult to introduce, because although initially it may not apply to things, successive governments can change that. But it is far more difficult for them to bring in an entirely new tax without losing voter support.

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2425151 21-Feb-2020 19:37
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

I haven't caught up on this, but while I do favour the tax, I dont favour the tax when some vehicles dont yet have an EV equivalent. There may be an EV equiavalent technically, but we dont want buy a 60k farm type vehicle vs an EV 160k farm type vehicle. Any case, its 2021, plenty of time to refine it. 

 

Plus, apparently people in NZ hate new taxes, so on that note, it should be canned???  Lets see what Nationals green policies come out at.

 

 

The easy option was to buy one of the options that didn't have a penalty - there were a few utes that based on their carbon emissions would not have been affected by it. It wasn't just about encouraging people to buy an EV but also to make people think about less emitting options.

 

 

If said vehicles did the task required. At a ballpark more or less, but not huge price difference. I come from a farm, we had a Land Cruiser, not todays patty case models. brute horsepower and it tows, and carries weight. If an EV met that at not a gross price difference, then fine. These categories need to be isolated, EV equivalents documented so they get the subsidy, no EV (yet), no tax. That just sensible and basic. 

 

The problem are city slickers who benefit from a grunty, torque based ICE vehicle, but rarely use it. Keep the ICE for now.


tdgeek
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  #2425152 21-Feb-2020 19:41
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mattwnz:

 

tdgeek:

 

 

 

Plus, apparently people in NZ hate new taxes, so on that note, it should be canned???  Lets see what Nationals green policies come out at.

 

 

 

 

The is a good reason NZers hate new taxes, and that is due to historically new taxes being changed since their introduction, to extract more money from taxpayers. Many taxes get brought in because they initially don't appear too bad. eg GST was10% when it was first introduced. But goverments then change the tax to extract more money from tax payers, as they can easily do that without needing to introduce a 'new tax'.. So would a 15% GST rate be as palatable as a 10% gst rate, if the GST rate had initially started at 15%. That is one reasons my CGT tax will be so difficult to introduce, because although initially it may not apply to things, successive governments can change that. But it is far more difficult for them to bring in an entirely new tax without losing voter support.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The word tax is over rated. When  GST was increased, with no mandate, very soon after the election, thats a TAX. If Aucklanders get landed with a temporary fuel tax to sort their own roads, thats a user based toll. Its not a tax. If we have a need to reduce emissions, and one means is this tax, its not a tax, its not there to inflate the tax take, its there to drive a target.


tdgeek
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  #2425154 21-Feb-2020 19:45
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This sums it up

 

The "feebate" was broadly supported by the auto industry. The Motor Industry Association said the feebate was "the most powerful policy available to this Government to influence car purchase decisions", but criticised the Clean Car Standard.

 

Grieg Epps of the MTA agreed. His organisation had concerns there would not be enough low-emissions vehicles in the Japanese market for New Zealand to import under the Clean Car Standard.

 

It is supported, but the equivalent lower emissions vehicles need to be here. To say that's common sense is an understatement. 


kingdragonfly
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  #2425155 21-Feb-2020 19:50
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Jonny Smith has left Fully Charged.

I think his channel is called "CarPervert"

Honda e: the EV that electric car haters love

Jonny Smith CarPervert

The Honda e is probably the most fascinating EV without a Tesla badge. In fact it's probably more fascinating, because its design alone captured the attention and desire of legions of car enthusiasts who don't even bloody like electric cars.

This 137 mile range Pokemon faced thing has a 35.5kWh battery pack which can be rapid charged in half an hour at 100kw. 0-62 takes 8.3 seconds with this 150hp launch edition car, but you will be able to option it with 134hp thereafter.

On paper it almost loses in every respect to its plug-in peers, but there's a charm to the £27,000 e, and for some that's enough. Using the power of finance you'll be able to live with one from under £300 a month. Regardless of whether you give a toss about zero emission cars, there is no denying this kind of design is precisely what Honda does best. I hope they do more small, slightly-retro-but-not rear wheel drive cars in the near future. Oh, the power of dreams...


Obraik
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  #2425156 21-Feb-2020 19:50
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tdgeek:

 

If said vehicles did the task required. At a ballpark more or less, but not huge price difference. I come from a farm, we had a Land Cruiser, not todays patty case models. brute horsepower and it tows, and carries weight. If an EV met that at not a gross price difference, then fine. These categories need to be isolated, EV equivalents documented so they get the subsidy, no EV (yet), no tax. That just sensible and basic. 

 

The problem are city slickers who benefit from a grunty, torque based ICE vehicle, but rarely use it. Keep the ICE for now.

 

 

I grew up on a dairy farm in the Waikato. We never had a ute or SUV type vehicle out on the farm because they'd get bogged down in mud during the winter. It was purely ATVs and tractors beyond the sheds.

 

For the sake of avoiding a drawn out 2 page back and fourth, my stance on this is that absolutely disagree that we should be making exemptions for certain vehicles. Climate change and air quality isn't getting better on its own so if someone has to pay a penalty to get their super sized ute then so be it. 


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2425162 21-Feb-2020 20:01
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

If said vehicles did the task required. At a ballpark more or less, but not huge price difference. I come from a farm, we had a Land Cruiser, not todays patty case models. brute horsepower and it tows, and carries weight. If an EV met that at not a gross price difference, then fine. These categories need to be isolated, EV equivalents documented so they get the subsidy, no EV (yet), no tax. That just sensible and basic. 

 

The problem are city slickers who benefit from a grunty, torque based ICE vehicle, but rarely use it. Keep the ICE for now.

 

 

I grew up on a dairy farm in the Waikato. We never had a ute or SUV type vehicle out on the farm because they'd get bogged down in mud during the winter. It was purely ATVs and tractors beyond the sheds.

 

For the sake of avoiding a drawn out 2 page back and fourth, my stance on this is that absolutely disagree that we should be making exemptions for certain vehicles. Climate change and air quality isn't getting better on its own so if someone has to pay a penalty to get their super sized ute then so be it. 

 

 

I also prefer a non back and forth. I'm not talking utes. Utes are just cars with a deck. We had a Land Cruiser, 4 litre Chev Blue Flame engine, high and low ratio 4WD. Grunty as F.  Whether it was going up  STEEP hills, feeding out on hills in the mud, feeding out where water was spewing up the gear lever and the tail pipe was under water at times, that was the need. We also has a ute, for general stuff. Not a dairy farm. If we wish to make a blanket cover all, then that will be a fail. To account for exemptions that are VALID is nothing more than sensible. My example won't be that common, so its an exemption. Large hectare farms may also be an exemption. But to ignore these valid exemptions is foolish. And if it became a big deal, where the effect is minimal but the media exposure was high, its a lost election, then you will see no subsidies. Focus on the majority not the valid minority. Your comment will probably be very valid in a few years to come but its not now

 

 


SaltyNZ
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  #2425166 21-Feb-2020 20:10
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Obraik:

 

wellygary: And the feebate scheme bites the dust ...,



https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/119713361/nz-first-axe-governments-electric-vehicle-subsidy-plan-while-greens-vow-to-take-the-policy-to-the-election

 

Winston's going to Winston I guess. 

 

How embarrassing for New Zealand.

 

 

 

 

Oh, Winston you ****er.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone XS + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


tdgeek
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  #2425168 21-Feb-2020 20:18
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SaltyNZ:

 

 

 

Oh, Winston you ****er.

 

 

Before I agree I want to know his boundary. Is he after basic boring utes, or speclalist vehicles? We all need to hate him, but he's not stupid. If he's targeting silly utes, then he is stupid. Id rather get the facts than join the mob. If he is going after any farm ICE vehicle, then go the Greens, take him on in the election. Say we get another Coalition, then that part of his wants is scrapped, end of story. Or Labour digs in and no coalition. That means a minority National or Labour govt. Id probably prefer either of those.  


bfginger
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  #2425188 21-Feb-2020 22:01
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tdgeek:

 

This sums it up

 

The "feebate" was broadly supported by the auto industry. The Motor Industry Association said the feebate was "the most powerful policy available to this Government to influence car purchase decisions", but criticised the Clean Car Standard.

 

Grieg Epps of the MTA agreed. His organisation had concerns there would not be enough low-emissions vehicles in the Japanese market for New Zealand to import under the Clean Car Standard.

 

It is supported, but the equivalent lower emissions vehicles need to be here. To say that's common sense is an understatement. 

 

 

The New Zealand new car market is dominated by oversized fuel guzzlers. Japan has many efficient new car models including new hybrids never sold in New Zealand.  

 

Two efficient new ICE cars on the road has the same impact as a new EV and a standard fuel guzzler. But is much cheaper.

 

It's much cheaper to ban dirty models and oversized engines than pay huge subsidies for expensive EVs. 


Geektastic
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  #2425192 21-Feb-2020 22:37
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

I haven't caught up on this, but while I do favour the tax, I dont favour the tax when some vehicles dont yet have an EV equivalent. There may be an EV equiavalent technically, but we dont want buy a 60k farm type vehicle vs an EV 160k farm type vehicle. Any case, its 2021, plenty of time to refine it. 

 

Plus, apparently people in NZ hate new taxes, so on that note, it should be canned???  Lets see what Nationals green policies come out at.

 

 

The easy option was to buy one of the options that didn't have a penalty - there were a few utes that based on their carbon emissions would not have been affected by it. It wasn't just about encouraging people to buy an EV but also to make people think about less emitting options.

 

 

 

 

Could you not achieve that by requiring new cars to comply with say the Euro emissions protocols? I suspect most of them do anyway.






tdgeek
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  #2425246 22-Feb-2020 08:30
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bfginger:

 

 

 

The New Zealand new car market is dominated by oversized fuel guzzlers. Japan has many efficient new car models including new hybrids never sold in New Zealand.  

 

Two efficient new ICE cars on the road has the same impact as a new EV and a standard fuel guzzler. But is much cheaper.

 

It's much cheaper to ban dirty models and oversized engines than pay huge subsidies for expensive EVs. 

 

 

I agree. What about those that tow large trailers, horse floats, boats? Commercial use? Its absolutely fine to ban them but you need the equivalent EV to replace them. 


frednz
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  #2425262 22-Feb-2020 09:08
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This feebate scheme was a good idea in theory, but as soon as you start telling people that they're going to have to pay an extra tax on certain petrol vehicles so that "wealthy" EV buyers pay less for their new $75,000 Teslas etc, then this "car tax" was always going to be labelled as "punitive" from those politicians seeking to gain a political advantage from the whole situation. In fact, National has posted on Facebook that "this backdown is a win for all the Kiwis who made their voice heard".

 

So, EV subsidies are a great idea and absolutely essential to get EV sales going here, but a complete rethink is needed on how to finance these subsidies so that "a majority" of people are happy. The fact that NZ is moving so slowly on this whole EV subsidies idea and that 97% of all vehicles purchased here are petrol driven, perhaps indicates that there really isn't all that much need, from a climate change viewpoint, to deal with this situation urgently.

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2425263 22-Feb-2020 09:27
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frednz:

 

This feebate scheme was a good idea in theory, but as soon as you start telling people that they're going to have to pay an extra tax on certain petrol vehicles so that "wealthy" EV buyers pay less for their new $75,000 Teslas etc, then this "car tax" was always going to be labelled as "punitive" from those politicians seeking to gain a political advantage from the whole situation. In fact, National has posted on Facebook that "this backdown is a win for all the Kiwis who made their voice heard".

 

So, EV subsidies are a great idea and absolutely essential to get EV sales going here, but a complete rethink is needed on how to finance these subsidies so that "a majority" of people are happy. The fact that NZ is moving so slowly on this whole EV subsidies idea and that 97% of all vehicles purchased here are petrol driven, perhaps indicates that there really isn't all that much need, from a climate change viewpoint, to deal with this situation urgently.

 

 

 

 

The previous Govt has no green policies, so its not that NZ was inherently slow, it was that a 9 year Govt wasnt interested in climate change. Yes, $75k Tesla gets a boost but so do many cars in the mass market price point. Including small, efficient ICE cars, such as the Swift. Hybrids too. It probably needs more marketing so that its a "tax" can be shown that its actually a sensible driver to reduce emissions.

 

Is it punitive? yes. Its punitive on emissions. If you have to buy a larger ICE, well so be it. Power prices go up, we pay for it, buyers of larger ICE's can pay for their price increase too. Price increases are a fact of life but at least this one has a benefit behind it.


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