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dafman
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  #2425280 22-Feb-2020 10:19
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Obraik:

 

For the sake of avoiding a drawn out 2 page back and fourth, my stance on this is that absolutely disagree that we should be making exemptions for certain vehicles. Climate change and air quality isn't getting better on its own so if someone has to pay a penalty to get their super sized ute then so be it. 

 

 

.... certain types of vehicles, used predominantly by a certain occupation, demanding, as always, that they should not bear any cost for their climate impact.


tdgeek
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  #2425288 22-Feb-2020 10:34
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dafman:

 

Obraik:

 

For the sake of avoiding a drawn out 2 page back and fourth, my stance on this is that absolutely disagree that we should be making exemptions for certain vehicles. Climate change and air quality isn't getting better on its own so if someone has to pay a penalty to get their super sized ute then so be it. 

 

 

.... certain types of vehicles, used predominantly by a certain occupation, demanding, as always, that they should not bear any cost for their climate impact.

 

 

Farmers? Or builders and contractors?


 
 
 
 


Obraik
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  #2425335 22-Feb-2020 12:07
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frednz:

 

This feebate scheme was a good idea in theory, but as soon as you start telling people that they're going to have to pay an extra tax on certain petrol vehicles so that "wealthy" EV buyers pay less for their new $75,000 Teslas etc, then this "car tax" was always going to be labelled as "punitive" from those politicians seeking to gain a political advantage from the whole situation. In fact, National has posted on Facebook that "this backdown is a win for all the Kiwis who made their voice heard".

 

So, EV subsidies are a great idea and absolutely essential to get EV sales going here, but a complete rethink is needed on how to finance these subsidies so that "a majority" of people are happy. The fact that NZ is moving so slowly on this whole EV subsidies idea and that 97% of all vehicles purchased here are petrol driven, perhaps indicates that there really isn't all that much need, from a climate change viewpoint, to deal with this situation urgently.

 

 

I guess my question to those people is "where do you think second hand cars come from?". Obviously imports make up a chunk of them, but you can't get second hand cars without some "wealthy" buyer first owning it.

 

I think it's entirely fair to the NZ population that the subsidies for clean vehicles are generated by those who buy and import polluters. Much fairer than the subsidies coming out of the general tax pool. It's working well in Sweden


tdgeek
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  #2425337 22-Feb-2020 12:11
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Obraik:

 

frednz:

 

This feebate scheme was a good idea in theory, but as soon as you start telling people that they're going to have to pay an extra tax on certain petrol vehicles so that "wealthy" EV buyers pay less for their new $75,000 Teslas etc, then this "car tax" was always going to be labelled as "punitive" from those politicians seeking to gain a political advantage from the whole situation. In fact, National has posted on Facebook that "this backdown is a win for all the Kiwis who made their voice heard".

 

So, EV subsidies are a great idea and absolutely essential to get EV sales going here, but a complete rethink is needed on how to finance these subsidies so that "a majority" of people are happy. The fact that NZ is moving so slowly on this whole EV subsidies idea and that 97% of all vehicles purchased here are petrol driven, perhaps indicates that there really isn't all that much need, from a climate change viewpoint, to deal with this situation urgently.

 

 

I guess my question to those people is "where do you think second hand cars come from?". Obviously imports make up a chunk of them, but you can't get second hand cars without some "wealthy" buyer first owning it.

 

I think it's entirely fair to the NZ population that the subsidies for clean vehicles are generated by those who buy and import polluters. Much fairer than the subsidies coming out of the general tax pool. It's working well in Sweden

 

 

And if there is no equivalent EV?


Obraik
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  #2425338 22-Feb-2020 12:13
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tdgeek:

 

And if there is no equivalent EV?

 

 

You know what my response to that question is going to be.


tdgeek
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  #2425342 22-Feb-2020 12:23
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

And if there is no equivalent EV?

 

 

You know what my response to that question is going to be.

 

 

For the benefit of others, yes its no exemptions. No matter what. This is how you create animosity and resistance with those that have no viable equivalent. 


Obraik
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  #2425346 22-Feb-2020 12:31
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tdgeek:

 

For the benefit of others, yes its no exemptions. No matter what. This is how you create animosity and resistance with those that have no viable equivalent. 

 

 

Think of it as a mandatory carbon offsetting fee.


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2425355 22-Feb-2020 12:48
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

For the benefit of others, yes its no exemptions. No matter what. This is how you create animosity and resistance with those that have no viable equivalent. 

 

 

Think of it as a mandatory carbon offsetting fee.

 

 

No issue with that, it should therefore apply to all FF vehicles. Not just cars and light vehicles. That way you will garner more revenue as medium and large trucks have no equivalent, so you can therefore subsidise more low emission cars and light vehicles. 


frednz
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  #2425452 22-Feb-2020 15:19
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tdgeek:

 

The previous Govt has no green policies, so its not that NZ was inherently slow, it was that a 9 year Govt wasnt interested in climate change. Yes, $75k Tesla gets a boost but so do many cars in the mass market price point. Including small, efficient ICE cars, such as the Swift. Hybrids too. It probably needs more marketing so that its a "tax" can be shown that its actually a sensible driver to reduce emissions.

 

 

It's always very easy for a current Government to blame a previous Government for their lack of progress and the current Government does this all the time! Anyway, this isn't the political forum, so I don't think it's all that appropriate to argue whether or not the previous Government "was interested in climate change". 

 

I think you also have to look at how Treasury views the situation. For example, see this article:

 

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/01/24/998105/treasury-and-transport-butted-heads-over-feebate-scheme

 

From the above:

 

Instead of market intervention, Treasury pointed to the Emissions Trading Scheme as the only necessary component for reducing light vehicle emissions to meet New Zealand's international obligations.

 

Treasury's opposition came after Transport's own estimate found the feebate scheme would only reduce emissions by about 1.6 million tonnes of CO2 equivalent over two decades. New Zealand's annual gross emissions are around 80 million tonnes.

 

 

 

 


MarkH67
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  #2425456 22-Feb-2020 15:27
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tdgeek:

 

No issue with that, it should therefore apply to all FF vehicles. Not just cars and light vehicles. That way you will garner more revenue as medium and large trucks have no equivalent, so you can therefore subsidise more low emission cars and light vehicles. 

 

 

If it were up to me there would be a carbon charge on all petrol, diesel, coal, gas and any other fossil fuels.  Huntly power station would be paying a carbon charge on any coal it burns and all vehicles burning fossil fuels would be paying a carbon charge on every litre burnt.  There will be future costs because of todays carbon emmisions, unfortunately the people resposible for those emissions are not being charged for the damage they are doing - this is inherintly unfair.  Currently people are getting fossil fuels cheap and future generations will be the ones to pay the price.


tdgeek
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  #2425510 22-Feb-2020 16:45
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

The previous Govt has no green policies, so its not that NZ was inherently slow, it was that a 9 year Govt wasnt interested in climate change. Yes, $75k Tesla gets a boost but so do many cars in the mass market price point. Including small, efficient ICE cars, such as the Swift. Hybrids too. It probably needs more marketing so that its a "tax" can be shown that its actually a sensible driver to reduce emissions.

 

 

It's always very easy for a current Government to blame a previous Government for their lack of progress and the current Government does this all the time! Anyway, this isn't the political forum, so I don't think it's all that appropriate to argue whether or not the previous Government "was interested in climate change". 

 

I think you also have to look at how Treasury views the situation. For example, see this article:

 

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2020/01/24/998105/treasury-and-transport-butted-heads-over-feebate-scheme

 

From the above:

 

Instead of market intervention, Treasury pointed to the Emissions Trading Scheme as the only necessary component for reducing light vehicle emissions to meet New Zealand's international obligations.

 

Treasury's opposition came after Transport's own estimate found the feebate scheme would only reduce emissions by about 1.6 million tonnes of CO2 equivalent over two decades. New Zealand's annual gross emissions are around 80 million tonnes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You in fact stated that NZ was slow to get to a feebate policy. I merely stated why. For all its ultra left social faults, the Green Party created the feebate. Given that the feebate is seen here as a great success overseas, its a valid point. Which will now be blocked and one would assume watered down by NZF. National say its punitive and just another tax and they favour an RUC approach. Treasury dont want the feebate either. So, given the likelihood it won't see the light of day, the comment is relevant. NZ has been slow to get a feebate scheme, it may never have one. Its due 2021, the election is in 2020.


tdgeek
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  #2425511 22-Feb-2020 16:46
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MarkH67:

 

tdgeek:

 

No issue with that, it should therefore apply to all FF vehicles. Not just cars and light vehicles. That way you will garner more revenue as medium and large trucks have no equivalent, so you can therefore subsidise more low emission cars and light vehicles. 

 

 

If it were up to me there would be a carbon charge on all petrol, diesel, coal, gas and any other fossil fuels.  Huntly power station would be paying a carbon charge on any coal it burns and all vehicles burning fossil fuels would be paying a carbon charge on every litre burnt.  There will be future costs because of todays carbon emmisions, unfortunately the people resposible for those emissions are not being charged for the damage they are doing - this is inherintly unfair.  Currently people are getting fossil fuels cheap and future generations will be the ones to pay the price.

 

 

Hard to argue against that.


robthemac
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  #2425555 22-Feb-2020 18:07
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Long time lurker here. First time advice-seeker.

Looking at buying my first EV. My aging Altezza is starting to cost a fair bit to maintain and at 11L/100km sips heartily from the fuel tank.

I drive about 8000km/year. The vast majority of that is my daily commute, 15km each way. We're likely moving to a slightly more rural area this year, which will extend the commute to 30km each way. I don't need the car for long trips, although getting from Whangarei to Auckland (170km) would be an optional luxury. I would rather pure electric than PHEV. We have a second car for long distances and towing.

My budget is 10-15k. Obviously that means I'll mostly be looking at first gen Leafs. What should I be looking at? Are bars and SOH measurements really that useful? Do kilometres travelled mean much as the do on petrol cars? Any common problems that I should look out for?

Many thanks!
Robbie

frednz
1434 posts

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  #2425564 22-Feb-2020 18:54
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Obraik:

 

frednz:

 

This feebate scheme was a good idea in theory, but as soon as you start telling people that they're going to have to pay an extra tax on certain petrol vehicles so that "wealthy" EV buyers pay less for their new $75,000 Teslas etc, then this "car tax" was always going to be labelled as "punitive" from those politicians seeking to gain a political advantage from the whole situation. In fact, National has posted on Facebook that "this backdown is a win for all the Kiwis who made their voice heard".

 

So, EV subsidies are a great idea and absolutely essential to get EV sales going here, but a complete rethink is needed on how to finance these subsidies so that "a majority" of people are happy. The fact that NZ is moving so slowly on this whole EV subsidies idea and that 97% of all vehicles purchased here are petrol driven, perhaps indicates that there really isn't all that much need, from a climate change viewpoint, to deal with this situation urgently.

 

 

I guess my question to those people is "where do you think second hand cars come from?". Obviously imports make up a chunk of them, but you can't get second hand cars without some "wealthy" buyer first owning it.

 

 

I suppose this depends on how you define the term "wealthy". If you buy a new petrol car for between $20,000 and $30,000 this is a whole lot different from buying a new EV for $60,000, such as the 40kWh Nissan Leaf.

 

But, because of a world-wide shortage of EVs, so far, the second-hand price of EVs hasn't dropped that much, so if you have to be "wealthy" to buy a new EV, you also have to be pretty "wealthy" to buy a good used EV. For example, people who paid $80,000 for a new Hyundai 64kWh Kona expect to get around $75,000 for a Kona that's done 25,000 kms. Until there is a plentiful supply of EV Konas that are available for almost immediate delivery, expensive used Konas will be the case for quite a bit longer!

 

 


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2425565 22-Feb-2020 18:56
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robthemac: Long time lurker here. First time advice-seeker.

Looking at buying my first EV. My aging Altezza is starting to cost a fair bit to maintain and at 11L/100km sips heartily from the fuel tank.

I drive about 8000km/year. The vast majority of that is my daily commute, 15km each way. We're likely moving to a slightly more rural area this year, which will extend the commute to 30km each way. I don't need the car for long trips, although getting from Whangarei to Auckland (170km) would be an optional luxury. I would rather pure electric than PHEV. We have a second car for long distances and towing.

My budget is 10-15k. Obviously that means I'll mostly be looking at first gen Leafs. What should I be looking at? Are bars and SOH measurements really that useful? Do kilometres travelled mean much as the do on petrol cars? Any common problems that I should look out for?

Many thanks!
Robbie

 

Welcome, Robbie :)

 

Yeah, at this stage a used Leaf is pretty much the only option for that price range. The dedicated Leaf thread might be the best place to find the answers to all your Leaf questions, generally you want to buy the newest model with the most available range within your budget. While there's a lot less to check on an EV then a ICE vehicle, you will still want to get some basic checks done, like CV joints, suspension, etc.

 

Getting from Whangarei to Auckland is doable but you may need to have a 20-30min stop along the way to top up the battery - there are a few points along your route. The only other thing I'd mention is you should allow some of your budget for any charging equipment and electrical work you might need done to your house for a dedicated charger at your home. The Leaf should come with a portable unit which will likely be just fine for you recharging what you use for your daily commute, but if you want the security of having a charger with you in the car at all times it will mean unpacking it and packing it back up every day.


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