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frednz
1434 posts

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  #2425570 22-Feb-2020 19:03
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robthemac: Long time lurker here. First time advice-seeker.

Looking at buying my first EV. My aging Altezza is starting to cost a fair bit to maintain and at 11L/100km sips heartily from the fuel tank.

I drive about 8000km/year. The vast majority of that is my daily commute, 15km each way. We're likely moving to a slightly more rural area this year, which will extend the commute to 30km each way. I don't need the car for long trips, although getting from Whangarei to Auckland (170km) would be an optional luxury. I would rather pure electric than PHEV. We have a second car for long distances and towing.

My budget is 10-15k. Obviously that means I'll mostly be looking at first gen Leafs. What should I be looking at? Are bars and SOH measurements really that useful? Do kilometres travelled mean much as the do on petrol cars? Any common problems that I should look out for?

Many thanks!
Robbie

 

If you pay only 10-15k for any EV, you really need to get the battery health checked out very carefully. There are already cases where Leaf batteries have failed and replacement batteries can cost anything between $11,000 to $30,000. Nissan quoted $30,000 to one Leaf owner (reported on Facebook) but local "unofficial" EV people can provide one a lot cheaper, but I don't think it has a manufacturer's guarantee. And it can take quite a while to find a suitable battery replacement which is an important factor to consider.

 

You might be lucky and get a first gen Leaf that has a "healthy" battery, but the batteries don't have water cooling which can contribute to faster degradation than batteries which do have this.

 

I would also suggest that you buy from a reputable EV dealer rather than privately. Some EV owners are very responsible and would never try and sell an EV with a fast-failing battery, but others might be prepared to give it a go …..

 

I suggest you read through this thread which is about electric vehicle battery failures:

 

https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=162&topicid=265537

 

From the above:

 

Steve Withers explains what happened to his Nissan Leaf:
 
https://m.facebook.com/groups/655827161203344?view=permalink&id=2606646929454681

 


It's also interesting to read this thread started by Matt Jackett about a $30,000 quote to replace the battery of his 2016 Nissan Leaf:
 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/NZEVOwners/permalink/2456286841305282/

 

 

 

 

 

 


frednz
1434 posts

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  #2425575 22-Feb-2020 19:15
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tdgeek:

 

You in fact stated that NZ was slow to get to a feebate policy. I merely stated why. For all its ultra left social faults, the Green Party created the feebate. Given that the feebate is seen here as a great success overseas, its a valid point. Which will now be blocked and one would assume watered down by NZF. National say its punitive and just another tax and they favour an RUC approach. Treasury dont want the feebate either. So, given the likelihood it won't see the light of day, the comment is relevant. NZ has been slow to get a feebate scheme, it may never have one. Its due 2021, the election is in 2020.

 

 

I in fact stated "The fact that NZ is moving so slowly on this whole EV subsidies idea". I disagree with the reason you gave as to why this has happened.

 

For example:

 

http://evtalk.co.nz/treasury-critical-of-feebate-scheme/

 

From the above:

 

“National believes financial incentives, not penalties, are the best way to support this country’s shift to electric vehicles.”

 

And it was National that removed RUCs on certain EVs, and this has been very popular with EV owners.


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
21522 posts

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  #2425580 22-Feb-2020 19:31
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

You in fact stated that NZ was slow to get to a feebate policy. I merely stated why. For all its ultra left social faults, the Green Party created the feebate. Given that the feebate is seen here as a great success overseas, its a valid point. Which will now be blocked and one would assume watered down by NZF. National say its punitive and just another tax and they favour an RUC approach. Treasury dont want the feebate either. So, given the likelihood it won't see the light of day, the comment is relevant. NZ has been slow to get a feebate scheme, it may never have one. Its due 2021, the election is in 2020.

 

 

I in fact stated "The fact that NZ is moving so slowly on this whole EV subsidies idea". I disagree with the reason you gave as to why this has happened.

 

For example:

 

http://evtalk.co.nz/treasury-critical-of-feebate-scheme/

 

From the above:

 

“National believes financial incentives, not penalties, are the best way to support this country’s shift to electric vehicles.”

 

And it was National that removed RUCs on certain EVs, and this has been very popular with EV owners.

 

 

Also from EVTalk

 

The RUC exemption for EVs is set to expire in 2021 when a Clean Car plan proposed by the Labour-led Government suggests introducing a discount (feebate) scheme rewarding low to zero emission vehicles and an emissions standard for all vehicles.

 

But National considers the feebate proposal complicated and overly punitive, with the party likely to favour a fuel economy standard instead.

 

http://evtalk.co.nz/fuel-tax-to-go-but-ruc-for-all-vehicles-national/

 

So National favours incentives, but that seemingly excludes the feebate scheme.

 

 

 

At the end of the day, we still dont have a feebate scheme, and may not have one, and most (Treasury, National, NZ First) seem to rubbish it


MarkH67
401 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2425585 22-Feb-2020 20:04
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RUC for all sounds quite sensible.  If road tax on petrol pays for roading then it seems silly that hybrids pay less for roads (because they use less petrol) and cars that have poor fuel economy pay more.  A carbon tax on petrol makes sense because the aim is to encourage people to use petrol (and use EVs or more efficient cars or public transport or walk more or cycle more, etc).  But a tax to fund roading infrastructure should be based on distance travelled and maybe weight of the vehicle, not fuel economy.


Obraik
785 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2425586 22-Feb-2020 20:05
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frednz:

 

I in fact stated "The fact that NZ is moving so slowly on this whole EV subsidies idea". I disagree with the reason you gave as to why this has happened.

 

For example:

 

http://evtalk.co.nz/treasury-critical-of-feebate-scheme/

 

From the above:

 

“National believes financial incentives, not penalties, are the best way to support this country’s shift to electric vehicles.”

 

And it was National that removed RUCs on certain EVs, and this has been very popular with EV owners.

 

 

I don't really think RUC has played much part in the uptake of EVs. RUC also isn't sustainable as it directly hampers the maintenance of roads. At least the feebate was funded by those causing the damage


tdgeek
21522 posts

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  #2425592 22-Feb-2020 20:30
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Obraik:

 

frednz:

 

I in fact stated "The fact that NZ is moving so slowly on this whole EV subsidies idea". I disagree with the reason you gave as to why this has happened.

 

For example:

 

http://evtalk.co.nz/treasury-critical-of-feebate-scheme/

 

From the above:

 

“National believes financial incentives, not penalties, are the best way to support this country’s shift to electric vehicles.”

 

And it was National that removed RUCs on certain EVs, and this has been very popular with EV owners.

 

 

I don't really think RUC has played much part in the uptake of EVs. RUC also isn't sustainable as it directly hampers the maintenance of roads. At least the feebate was funded by those causing the damage

 

 

On that we agree, saving RUC was a nice bonus but it wont stop anyone buying an EV for green purposes or for fuel saving purposes. 


frednz
1434 posts

Uber Geek


  #2425612 22-Feb-2020 21:51
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tdgeek:

 

On that we agree, saving RUC was a nice bonus but it wont stop anyone buying an EV for green purposes or for fuel saving purposes. 

 

 

Sure, it's a nice bonus which can be quite large in some instances. Take, for example, this recent comment from James Wylie on the FB NZ Owners forum:

 

"Sitting and thinking about electric vehicle incentives this morning I would just like to thank the National Party for so far saving me over $3,000 in two years of electric vehicle ownership. I have absolutely no recollection of whether the removal of RUC for electric vehicles was 'controversial' at the time but it seems to have had some success and is certainly one of the pro's I talk about when discussing ev's with potential ev owners."

 


In reply Greg Trounson said:

 

"In fact parliament's silence on the RUC issue is directly harming EV uptake right now. People I know are reluctant to buy an EV because of the uncertainty of what will happen after next year."


 
 
 
 


Obraik
785 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2425627 22-Feb-2020 22:14
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frednz:

 

Sure, it's a nice bonus which can be quite large in some instances. Take, for example, this recent comment from James Wylie on the FB NZ Owners forum:

 

"Sitting and thinking about electric vehicle incentives this morning I would just like to thank the National Party for so far saving me over $3,000 in two years of electric vehicle ownership. I have absolutely no recollection of whether the removal of RUC for electric vehicles was 'controversial' at the time but it seems to have had some success and is certainly one of the pro's I talk about when discussing ev's with potential ev owners."

 


In reply Greg Trounson said:

 

"In fact parliament's silence on the RUC issue is directly harming EV uptake right now. People I know are reluctant to buy an EV because of the uncertainty of what will happen after next year."

 

 

A subsidy that's fed from those who buy high emission vehicles is fairer to everyone than EV owners not contributing to the maintenance of roads. This is coming from an EV owner who has nothing to gain from adding RUC back and swapping it for a purchase subsidy.

 

The lack of announcement on what's happening with RUC for EVs has had very little to do with the reason people have been holding off, it's because everyone thought they were soon to get a $8k discount off the purchase price. Further proof that a subsidy is more enticing than the removal of RUC - a mechanism that most people have little concept of since it's built into most peoples petrol costs.


tdgeek
21522 posts

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  #2425726 23-Feb-2020 06:33
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It all depends if you can seperate, from Norway for example, how much of the take-up was due to a subsidy. Its probably not possible to evaluate how many would still have bought an EV. Here in NZ, if I wanted to buy an 80k EV, and the subsidy isnt here till 2021, there will be substantial fuel savings to be had, at an equivalent of 30c per litre equivalent versus $2-00+. For us, its about choice. I dont what a Tesla, nor a Leaf, nor a Kona. Ilm Honda biased, like to see what they offer in a 5 door hatchback and SUV. And other mainstream brands. Then decide, could well be a Tesla. Plus prices may be better as well, as a possible benefit. Ilm sure there will be a drive for large ICE vehicles pre subsidy, of you are planning soon, do it before the car tax. Sure, many will hang out for the subsidy for their upcoming EV purchase. The other option was to make all that now not later. But choice is limited, possibly availability is somewhat limited. 


Obraik
785 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2425861 23-Feb-2020 12:51
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tdgeek:

 

It all depends if you can seperate, from Norway for example, how much of the take-up was due to a subsidy. Its probably not possible to evaluate how many would still have bought an EV. Here in NZ, if I wanted to buy an 80k EV, and the subsidy isnt here till 2021, there will be substantial fuel savings to be had, at an equivalent of 30c per litre equivalent versus $2-00+. For us, its about choice. I dont what a Tesla, nor a Leaf, nor a Kona. Ilm Honda biased, like to see what they offer in a 5 door hatchback and SUV. And other mainstream brands. Then decide, could well be a Tesla. Plus prices may be better as well, as a possible benefit. Ilm sure there will be a drive for large ICE vehicles pre subsidy, of you are planning soon, do it before the car tax. Sure, many will hang out for the subsidy for their upcoming EV purchase. The other option was to make all that now not later. But choice is limited, possibly availability is somewhat limited. 

 

 

I'd argue that it's pretty clear the aggressive subsidies and incentives that Norway has is definitely playing a big part in the large uptake of EVs. Considering in 2019 that 55% of all new cars sold were electric and the world average is 2.5%, it would seem most EV buyers are doing so due to the incentives. Here's a list of all incentives and subsidies that are available for EV buyers in Norway:

 

  • No annual road tax
  • Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles
  • Parking fee for EVs implemented locally but with an upper limit of a maximum 50% of the full price
  • Access to bus lanes
  • Company car tax reduction reduced to 40%
  • No purchase/import taxes
  • Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase.

Grunta47
52 posts

Master Geek


  #2425883 23-Feb-2020 13:54
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You can’t really compare Norway to NZ as there are a huge number of differences, but two really stand out

 

- a higher than average wage.
- A large percentage of ICE cars sold in Norway were higher cost cars (Volvo, etc), especially when considering their harsh winter driving conditions. Changing to an EV was not that much of an increase for most buyers.

 

But the most important, most of the has been financed through Norway’s large oil exports. A bit hypocritical really.


Obraik
785 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2425910 23-Feb-2020 15:21
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Grunta47:

 

You can’t really compare Norway to NZ as there are a huge number of differences, but two really stand out

 

- a higher than average wage.
- A large percentage of ICE cars sold in Norway were higher cost cars (Volvo, etc), especially when considering their harsh winter driving conditions. Changing to an EV was not that much of an increase for most buyers.

 

But the most important, most of the has been financed through Norway’s large oil exports. A bit hypocritical really.

 

 

It wasn't really a comparison between NZ and Norway but a discussion of "do incentives influence" and for Norway the answer is clearly yes, they do.

 

 


MarkH67
401 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2425972 23-Feb-2020 18:00
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Grunta47:

 

Obraik:

 

Here's a list of all incentives and subsidies that are available for EV buyers in Norway:

 

  • No annual road tax
  • Maximum 50% of the total amount on ferry fares for electric vehicles
  • Parking fee for EVs implemented locally but with an upper limit of a maximum 50% of the full price
  • Access to bus lanes
  • Company car tax reduction reduced to 40%
  • No purchase/import taxes
  • Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase.

 

But the most important, most of the has been financed through Norway’s large oil exports. A bit hypocritical really.

 

 

Wait, which of those things required funding?

 

My understanding is that Norway gets a big gain in funding from an investment fund (from money invested that had been received from the sale of oil) which presumably means they can take in less tax.  But the EV incentives are about taking in less tax rather than giving oil money to EV buyers.  If we had the taxes on new cars that Norway does then we could also exempt EVs from those taxes as well as having money to finance other incentives, I'm not sure how we would be unable to do exactly what they have done, even without the oil money they have.


GV27
2389 posts

Uber Geek


  #2425991 23-Feb-2020 19:56
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I guess it comes down to priorities - do we want to use limited government funds to give to people who can afford to buy a new car, especially if it's going to be funded by making (presumably) older cheaper cars more expensive? 

 

You'll have a hard time convincing many people that's equitable. 


MarkH67
401 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2425993 23-Feb-2020 20:10
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GV27:

 

I guess it comes down to priorities - do we want to use limited government funds to give to people who can afford to buy a new car, especially if it's going to be funded by making (presumably) older cheaper cars more expensive? 

 

 

Why would we be making older cars more expensive?

 

The aim would be to make EVs cheaper by making fossil fuel burners more expensive.  Do we want to do this?  Well, yes, at least we should.  Why wouldn't we want to make cars that have a worse impact on the environment more expensive while making cars that have a lesser impact on the environment cheaper?

 

In Norway in 5 years time how easy will it be to find a reasonably priced 2nd hand EV?  My guess is that there will be plenty of 2nd hand EVs on the market since currently over half the new cars sold are EVs.  Is that not a good thing for 2nd hand car buyers of the future?


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