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Technofreak
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  #2486599 19-May-2020 19:20
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maxeon:

 

My Interest costs ARE the running costs for the sytem for the 15 year warranty timeframe. That capital I "borrowed" is set aside and instead of paying money to power company, I transfer it there. 

 

Yes, there will always be depreciation costs for any system for it's use over the period of 15 years, however if I DO NOT have this system then the money I am going to pay (2400 more per year) to the Power company is never going to come back to me.

 

So I can assume my depreciated hardware (if it's still working in the warranty period) is possibly better than paying money that I will never get back. 

 

If I get 15 years of service from the system (warranty period of the actual system) - fairly confident that it will cover my capital costs.

 

Although, I might end up selling the property in 5 years, which is when I will expect to get my capitol to be returned partially.

 

It's like having a pool / spa in your backyard to increase your value (use it or not)? in my case I use it heavily. 

 

 

 

About opportunity cost

 

I do have money aside for any opportunity cost, but I "personally" would not like to compare one to another. Each to their own have their risks and benefits.  This 30k I borrowed is on a seperate account paying itself by discounting my powerbill and possibly more by my EV use. 

 

 

Fair comment on the money you save on power bills being used to pay the principal.

 

Based on your 15 year life expectancy when you consider capital and interest alone, the way I add it up, you are paying $3200 per year to save paying the power company $2400 per year plus or minus. ($30,000/15 = $2000/year, plus $1200 interest/year.) I guess the interest figure will go down as the principal diminishes.

 

Obviously you have worked the numbers differently.

 

As you said it like having a swimming pool or spa.

 

Sorry to everyone else for going slightly off topic.





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tdgeek
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  #2486788 20-May-2020 06:43
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Obraik:

 

The discussion has been had on this topic within this thread countless times now so I'm not really prepared to go through all that again. Just know that I still consider you incorrect for all the same reasons as last time.

 

 

Same here, lets see when the subsidy comes in eventually and they are selling like droves. My opinion is Hybrids will sell like droves, they are already popular and when you spend $x on one you get a car with the features you paid for, without paying a huge premium


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2486789 20-May-2020 06:52
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Technofreak:

 

Fair comment on the money you save on power bills being used to pay the principal.

 

Based on your 15 year life expectancy when you consider capital and interest alone, the way I add it up, you are paying $3200 per year to save paying the power company $2400 per year plus or minus. ($30,000/15 = $2000/year, plus $1200 interest/year.) I guess the interest figure will go down as the principal diminishes.

 

Obviously you have worked the numbers differently.

 

As you said it like having a swimming pool or spa.

 

Sorry to everyone else for going slightly off topic.

 

 

$2400 is a huge saving. Say sunshine hours are 2000. At 5kW that's 10,000 kW per year at say 25c. $2500. But only half of that is close to optimal, the first and last quarter are less. Yes, you do get kW with no sunshine. But also a lot of those hours are Summer where you can't use it all so you get 8c not 25c back. $200 a month doesn't seem quite right. But OTOH after the payback where you get zero benefit, there is no capital cost. Its really hard to judge how much the house value has increased with the solar attached. 


wellygary
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  #2486870 20-May-2020 09:55
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tdgeek:

 

 Its really hard to judge how much the house value has increased with the solar attached. 

 

 

That's the kicker, it pretty much requires a purchaser to put value in having PV..

 

The other potential "fly in the ointment" is the continuing fall in cost of PV and Batteries, you might have paid 30K for a system to find in 5 years you can get a higher capacity one for 20K,

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2486887 20-May-2020 10:18
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wellygary:

 

tdgeek:

 

 Its really hard to judge how much the house value has increased with the solar attached. 

 

 

That's the kicker, it pretty much requires a purchaser to put value in having PV..

 

The other potential "fly in the ointment" is the continuing fall in cost of PV and Batteries, you might have paid 30K for a system to find in 5 years you can get a higher capacity one for 20K,

 

 

 

 

Yep. I was going to get Solar PV, as we are here long term, and I can out perform my mates 9kW rig as his two sets of panels are East and West, mine would be all North, and I can timeshift, he won't. And they are more efficient now and cheaper. I would make it work better although its still not a godsend. As it happens I cant get solar PV as while our house is large its two level so less roof space and its intricate, and the biggest North facing is where the Solar Tubes are

 

It can work and it does for some, you just need to use it not lose it. PW2 is super cool but super long payback


Technofreak
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  #2486898 20-May-2020 10:51
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tdgeek:

 

Technofreak:

 

Fair comment on the money you save on power bills being used to pay the principal.

 

Based on your 15 year life expectancy when you consider capital and interest alone, the way I add it up, you are paying $3200 per year to save paying the power company $2400 per year plus or minus. ($30,000/15 = $2000/year, plus $1200 interest/year.) I guess the interest figure will go down as the principal diminishes.

 

Obviously you have worked the numbers differently.

 

As you said it like having a swimming pool or spa.

 

Sorry to everyone else for going slightly off topic.

 

 

$2400 is a huge saving. Say sunshine hours are 2000. At 5kW that's 10,000 kW per year at say 25c. $2500. But only half of that is close to optimal, the first and last quarter are less. Yes, you do get kW with no sunshine. But also a lot of those hours are Summer where you can't use it all so you get 8c not 25c back. $200 a month doesn't seem quite right. But OTOH after the payback where you get zero benefit, there is no capital cost. Its really hard to judge how much the house value has increased with the solar attached. 

 

 

My point was from the numbers quoted it doesn't make economic sense to me. There was a claim of saving $1200 per year (allowing for interest costs). As far as I can see there is at least a net cost of $800 over and above just doing nothing and paying the power company. I wouldn't see the PV system adding value come sale time. It might and it might not. Just like a swimming pool. I guess it comes down to what value you put on things.

 

I really like the idea of PV power and I have used it in a small installation. On that occasion PV power made sense due to the costs of installing a mains supply, the insignificant amount of power required and because the line charges would have significantly outweighed the cost of electricity used.





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tdgeek
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  #2486902 20-May-2020 10:58
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Technofreak:

 

 

 

My point was from the numbers quoted it doesn't make economic sense to me. There was a claim of saving $1200 per year (allowing for interest costs). As far as I can see there is at least a net cost of $800 over and above just doing nothing and paying the power company. I wouldn't see the PV system adding value come sale time. It might and it might not. Just like a swimming pool. I guess it comes down to what value you put on things.

 

I really like the idea of PV power and I have used it in a small installation. On that occasion PV power made sense due to the costs of installing a mains supply, the insignificant amount of power required and because the line charges would have significantly outweighed the cost of electricity used.

 

 

Im agreeing with you, my point was that I cant see the $2400 saving being accurate or close to it.


 
 
 
 


HarmLessSolutions
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  #2486903 20-May-2020 11:00
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maxeon:

 

tdgeek:

 

Sun doesnt shine at night when the car is home. Then there is Winter. Battery? Well if you pay $18000 for a battery that hold 13.5kW at 16c value, say $2 worth of power, thats a LONG payback. Id love solar PV but its not worth it. Its minimals benefit in the 6 months you need power, and its plenty there when you dont need it in the warm 6 months. Some can make it work if they use it all

 

 

 

 

I can give you my example. I have recently installed 20 panels and Tesla Battery. Monthly average savings is 200 dollars. 

 

I spent 30k for the entire setup by taking up a home loan topup for it at 3.5% interest. That's nearly 1200 dollars in interest per year to save 2400 in power per year. My net savings are 1200 approx per year. ROI is very low however I own the hardware for years and it goes with the house.  

 

I get to keep it and sell it as part of my house chattle. If you look it at as an investment that can sell when you do sell the house, it might be worth it. 

 

Been there, done that and this is a blog based on our experience.

 

Click to see full size

 

Our 6kW of panels were orientated facing true north and 39 degrees sloped so optimal for our Taranaki location. The property we installed them on was sold in November 2016. The inclusion of the PV installation was a good marketing point and was a key factor in the purchase of the property by the current owners. In other words a significant proportion of their cost was recouped in the property sale.


Obraik
785 posts

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  #2486905 20-May-2020 11:02
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I'm thinking someone needs to make a thread in the Home Workshop forum for this solar discussion


HarmLessSolutions
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  #2486910 20-May-2020 11:07
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Obraik:

 

I'm thinking someone needs to make a thread in the Home Workshop forum for this solar discussion

 

I started one a few days ago looking for advice on a PV installation we have planned.

 

In my experience EV threads usually morph into PV subject matter as the two technologies are closely aligned in regard to storage capacities and optimisation of solar generation using EVs. The correlation becomes even more closely linked in vehicle to grid applications.

 

 


Technofreak
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  #2486951 20-May-2020 11:14
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Obraik:

 

I'm thinking someone needs to make a thread in the Home Workshop forum for this solar discussion

 

 

Sorry, I'll shut up for now. 😄





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tdgeek
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  #2486968 20-May-2020 11:23
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HarmLessSolutions:

 

Obraik:

 

I'm thinking someone needs to make a thread in the Home Workshop forum for this solar discussion

 

I started one a few days ago looking for advice on a PV installation we have planned.

 

In my experience EV threads usually morph into PV subject matter as the two technologies are closely aligned in regard to storage capacities and optimisation of solar generation using EVs. The correlation becomes even more closely linked in vehicle to grid applications.

 

 

That's correct, similar viability questions too. If you have one of these solutions, the other can become more compelling


maxeon
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  #2487128 20-May-2020 13:34
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tdgeek:

 

Technofreak:

 

 

 

My point was from the numbers quoted it doesn't make economic sense to me. There was a claim of saving $1200 per year (allowing for interest costs). As far as I can see there is at least a net cost of $800 over and above just doing nothing and paying the power company. I wouldn't see the PV system adding value come sale time. It might and it might not. Just like a swimming pool. I guess it comes down to what value you put on things.

 

I really like the idea of PV power and I have used it in a small installation. On that occasion PV power made sense due to the costs of installing a mains supply, the insignificant amount of power required and because the line charges would have significantly outweighed the cost of electricity used.

 

 

Im agreeing with you, my point was that I cant see the $2400 saving being accurate or close to it.

 

 

Sorry, if this is out of topic and promise to say this will be my last on this topic on this EV forum. 

 

My Solar panels and PW2 was installed and went live around 20th Feb 2020. 

 

Total generated since is 2523 kWh. So 10000 kWh is possible by the year end?

 

In summary, it depends on your usage, factors of installation and efficiency on panels etc which all can be worked out. My buy back rate is 8 cents and spend rate is 16 cents (exc gst), however daily usage rate is down from being a High user to being low user which adds us monthly. 

 

Screenshots below.  

 

Click to see full size

 

Click to see full size

 

Click to see full size

 

Click to see full size

 

 


frankv
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  #2487170 20-May-2020 14:39
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maxeon:

 

My Solar panels and PW2 was installed and went live around 20th Feb 2020. 

 

Total generated since is 2523 kWh. So 10000 kWh is possible by the year end?

 

 

Possibly more, depending where you live.

 

Much to my surprise, throughout the country Mar-May have less than 25% of annual sunshine hours according Niwa. In Invercargill it was only 20%. That's 1981-2010 data, but I doubt it has changed much since.

 

 


HarmLessSolutions
35 posts

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  #2487176 20-May-2020 14:50
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frankv:

 

maxeon:

 

My Solar panels and PW2 was installed and went live around 20th Feb 2020. 

 

Total generated since is 2523 kWh. So 10000 kWh is possible by the year end?

 

 

Possibly more, depending where you live.

 

Much to my surprise, throughout the country Mar-May have less than 25% of annual sunshine hours according Niwa. In Invercargill it was only 20%. That's 1981-2010 data, but I doubt it has changed much since.

 

 

 

In our experience our 6kW of panels generated close to 900kWh during the peak summer months and minimised in winter months at around 300kWh. Panels had full sun exposure all year (no shading in winter) so our generation would be indicative of proportional seasonal variation in any location (i.e. winter =1/3 summer peak months). The only variable would be that our panels were black so summer heating may have limited their maximum due to this.


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