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kingdragonfly
5117 posts

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  #1722738 19-Feb-2017 18:11
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"Samsung sets out to blow up the electric vehicle market with powerful new battery"

[In January 2017], Samsung dropped the bomb at the North American International Auto Show, announcing its energy storage subsidiary SDI is readying a next-gen electric vehicle battery that crams enough oomph to cover distances of up to 372 miles on a single cycle and packs a mighty quick charge feature.

In addition to the ability to regain 310 miles of driving in about 20 minutes of charging, the hi-tech battery also comes in an efficient, lightweight body that weighs 10 percent less and involves less components.

The South Korean tech heavyweight hopes this innovation will clinch its spot as a leading electric mobility manufacturer. Here’s what the company said:

The development of the fast charging technology is making a rapid advancement thanks to its technological know-how in materials and processes that vastly decreased the resistance inside a battery cell.

With a 20min charge, you can have a driving range of up to 500km which is 80 percent of the capacity. This means that only 20min in the highway rest area will be enough for a battery to be charged, eliminating the range anxiety of EV drivers.


To give you some context, leading electric car producer Tesla promises an estimated range of up to 265 miles for the Model S and up to 250 miles for the Model X. In comparison to Samsung’s promise of 310 extra miles on a single 20-minute charge, Tesla currently has the capacity to regain 170 miles of range in half an hour.

What’s interesting is that fellow electric vehicle manufacturer Faraday Future claims to have developed a battery that purportedly lasts up to 378 miles. But given its less than convincing demonstration at CES, I wouldn’t rush spending my money on it.

If things go as planned, Samsung’s new battery will hit the shelves in 2021 – just in time to power the first batch of autonomous cars.

We just hope this time around the launch is going to be less volatile than with the notorious fire-bursting Galaxy Note 7 – or else we’re likely to witness some serious fireworks long before New Years Eve.


RunningMan
6141 posts

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  #1722765 19-Feb-2017 18:37
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kingdragonfly:[snip]
We just hope this time around the launch is going to be less volatile than with the notorious fire-bursting Galaxy Note 7 – or else we’re likely to witness some serious fireworks long before New Years Eve.

 

I think this is the key here tongue-out


 
 
 
 


old3eyes
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  #1722866 20-Feb-2017 08:39
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I saw a program last nite on PBS Nova about all the new battery tech being developed in the US for cars and grid storage.  If you have an Amazon Prime account or can find it via other methods it's worth a look. Goodbye to exploding batteries.





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Old3eyes


Linuxluver

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  #1722998 20-Feb-2017 13:12
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JPT:

 

Scott3:

 

Industry sources indicate that NZ is going to move towards a european "type 2" charging system (much better for NZ than type given we have readily available three phase power, and that type 1 cannot support it). The european system works on a "bring your own cable" basis, public chargers have only a type 2 socket, and you plug your own cable into the charger, and the other end into your car (for nissan leaf's this is a type 1 to type 2 cable).

 

 

 

 

I'm a bit confused with the Zoe's charging options. Is it correct that the Zoe:

 

- has a Type 2 Mennekes connector

 

- has no DC fast charge option (unless it has the optional Quick Charge feature?)

 

- charges at a rate of 3- 43 kW

 

 

 

When on a road trip in NZ, how wide spread are public charging station with high (22-43) amp Type 2 Mennekes plugs?

 

When I checked http://www.leadingthecharge.org.nz/charging-sites many public sites do not list Type 2 Mennekes at all, and if they do, for example the Z stations.

 

Does that mean that with a Zoe on a long road trip, fast high amp AC charging with Type 2 Mennekes is hard to find?

 

Many thanks for sharing your experience!

 



Generally...yes....Today a ZOE will be unable to use most of the existing chargers as a Zoe as AC charging only. 22kw standard - which is pretty good! - and 43kw as an option, which is even better. 

However, the fast charging network currently underway virtually ALL have 50kw DC CHAdeMO (NIssan LEAF and Tesla with the Tesla CHAdeMO adaptor) and 50kw DC CCS Type 1 (US flavour - not widely used, but as good as anything 18 months ago as the 'other' choice. Retro-fitting AC Type 2 sockets apparently isn't possible.....but all new chargers (aside form those already deliverd but not yet installed) will have Type 2 sockets......so a year from now it will be a lot better. 

Charge.net, Vector and several others all jointly applied for 50% co-funding in the latest round of grants from the EECA for EV projects to help pay the cost of converting CCS Type 1 to CCS Type 2 in the 50-odd fast chargers already operating around the country. The application was rejected. The projects weren't "high profile" enough. In any case, the Zoe can't DC fast charge. 

That said, the Zoe CAN charge happily from 3-phase industrial power points with the right adaptor........and there are a lot of those around. If Renault had a clue, they would find partners to make such outlets available....or even built a network of their own. They are AC.....so not a big deal technically, but the issue is always around who owns the land the power points sits on. 

The Whakatane Fast Charger has a 22kw Mennekes Type 2 socket on it...and I have used it. There are a couple of others around. Renault even have one in their forecourt on Great South Road (Greenlane, Auckland). 

I'd buy a Zoe with 41kWh battery in a heart beat....that 300km range would be awesome. But getting further for longer trips would require some planning and there may even be a business opportunity there for the right person. 

 





_____________________________________________________________________
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Linuxluver

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  #1723027 20-Feb-2017 14:48
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Tesla seems to be getting underway in New Zealand. They are hosting a launch event in Auckland on Thursday, February 23rd for invited guests only: existing Tesla owners and new Tesla owners. Some who ordered via the NZ Tesla site in November will receive their new cars at the event.

There is a second 'showcase' event the next day for other invitees, mainly with Model 3 reservations or who have shown keen interest.

Exactly where the Tesla store will be isn't clear, but it looks like it's very close to happening.




_____________________________________________________________________
If you order a Tesla, click my referral code below to order your car and get free stuff. 

 

My Tesla referral code: https://ts.la/steve52356


JPT

JPT
22 posts

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  #1723294 20-Feb-2017 20:51
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Linuxluver:

 

JPT:

 

Scott3:

 

Industry sources indicate that NZ is going to move towards a european "type 2" charging system (much better for NZ than type given we have readily available three phase power, and that type 1 cannot support it). The european system works on a "bring your own cable" basis, public chargers have only a type 2 socket, and you plug your own cable into the charger, and the other end into your car (for nissan leaf's this is a type 1 to type 2 cable).

 

 

 

 

I'm a bit confused with the Zoe's charging options. Is it correct that the Zoe:

 

- has a Type 2 Mennekes connector

 

- has no DC fast charge option (unless it has the optional Quick Charge feature?)

 

- charges at a rate of 3- 43 kW

 

 

 

When on a road trip in NZ, how wide spread are public charging station with high (22-43) amp Type 2 Mennekes plugs?

 

When I checked http://www.leadingthecharge.org.nz/charging-sites many public sites do not list Type 2 Mennekes at all, and if they do, for example the Z stations.

 

Does that mean that with a Zoe on a long road trip, fast high amp AC charging with Type 2 Mennekes is hard to find?

 

Many thanks for sharing your experience!

 



Generally...yes....Today a ZOE will be unable to use most of the existing chargers as a Zoe as AC charging only. 22kw standard - which is pretty good! - and 43kw as an option, which is even better. 

However, the fast charging network currently underway virtually ALL have 50kw DC CHAdeMO (NIssan LEAF and Tesla with the Tesla CHAdeMO adaptor) and 50kw DC CCS Type 1 (US flavour - not widely used, but as good as anything 18 months ago as the 'other' choice. Retro-fitting AC Type 2 sockets apparently isn't possible.....but all new chargers (aside form those already deliverd but not yet installed) will have Type 2 sockets......so a year from now it will be a lot better. 

Charge.net, Vector and several others all jointly applied for 50% co-funding in the latest round of grants from the EECA for EV projects to help pay the cost of converting CCS Type 1 to CCS Type 2 in the 50-odd fast chargers already operating around the country. The application was rejected. The projects weren't "high profile" enough. In any case, the Zoe can't DC fast charge. 

That said, the Zoe CAN charge happily from 3-phase industrial power points with the right adaptor........and there are a lot of those around. If Renault had a clue, they would find partners to make such outlets available....or even built a network of their own. They are AC.....so not a big deal technically, but the issue is always around who owns the land the power points sits on. 

The Whakatane Fast Charger has a 22kw Mennekes Type 2 socket on it...and I have used it. There are a couple of others around. Renault even have one in their forecourt on Great South Road (Greenlane, Auckland). 

I'd buy a Zoe with 41kWh battery in a heart beat....that 300km range would be awesome. But getting further for longer trips would require some planning and there may even be a business opportunity there for the right person. 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you, very helpful explanations. It appears to me that any EV with a Mennekes or Type 2 CCS DCFC in NZ is not going on a long road trip, unless

 

- the public charging situation changes (appears most unlikely at this stage), or

 

- one is keen to have 3 overnight charges between Auckland and Wellington (even less likely)!

 

EECA's stance is staggering, actually favouring more petrol and diesel cars, because so many new EV models are now Type 2. I wish I could withdraw my EECA levies!

 

It looks like NZ cannot come up with a coordinated approach between Central Government goals, NZTA announcements and EECA support.

 

What a mess.

 

Perhaps the sales of EVs will plummet similarly to Australia's figures, as reported in 'EV Talk', Feb 2017 edition?


Scott3
1148 posts

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  #1723396 21-Feb-2017 00:11
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Frankly, Unless you are an enthusiast with time to burn, I don't see it as realistic to take any of the a long road trip (like Auckland to Wellington) in any of the sub tesla pure electrics... Take a gas car, fly, or if you are feeling green, the bus (they even have one with beds on it now) or the train (I think they still hook up an electric locomotive for most of the trip)

Regarding the Zoe, (with no DC fast charge and 22/43kW charging ability), this looks likely to become a bit of a tech orphan over time, 22kW is a bit slow for "fast charging" (especially on a 41kWh battery), and 43kW is a currently a little rare. Renault have committed to ditching 43kW Ac for the next zoe, in favor of 22kW AC & (unknown kW) DC via CCS type 2, by 2019. As such I would pick investment in 43kW AC charging to weaken.

That said, Renault reckons the "summer" range of the 41kWh Zoe is 190miles (305km). If you live in Auckland (by euro standards we are summer year round) you do the following trips (assuming you are going to stay with family etc for a couple of days to charge back up for the way home):

 

  • Auckland to Hamilton RETURN - 250km (stop at Te Kauwhata 43kW charger (WEL) on the way back if a bit low)
  • Auckland to Raglan - 150km (with 43kW charger for return trip if needed)
  • Auckland to Tauranga - 211km
  • Auckland to Rotorua - 230km
  • Auckland to Kerikeri - 240km (stop at whangarei / Marsden 22kW (Northpower) charger if low)
  • Auckland to Taupo - 275km (1 stop at WEL Hamilton 43kW for comfort)
  • Auckland to Whakatane - 296km (stop at Te Kauwhata 43kW charger (WEL) for comfort), 22kW charger at destination for return trip if needed)
  • Auckland to Kaitaia - 310 km - (stop at whangarei / Marsden 22kW (Northpower) charger for a boost)
  • Auckland to Ohakune - 360km (Pushing the limits, Stop at WEL Hamilton 43kW for full charge - second leg 239km)
  • Auckland to New Plymouth - 361 km (Pushing the limits, Stop at WEL Hamilton 43kW for full charge - second leg 239km)


As AC public chargers move to "Type 2" sockets, I would expect to see a lot more 22kW AC sockets around, but personally don't expect many more 43kW AC charges beyond what exists.


 

Regarding the Type 2 CCS situation, there are a few around already. The agreement that the Type 1 CCS cords need to be swapped out ASAP seems widespread (I don't know where BMW NZ stand on this though). The only sticking point seems to be the funding (cira $100k) required to do so. Fingers crossed that this will happen this year. Timeline needs to be locked in or Hyundai Iconic sales will suffer...


 

This standards issue stems from the electrical standards committees (NZ & AUS) selecting an IEC standard for NZ & AUS Electric vehicle charging that encompassed both type 1 & type 2 plugs, while providing no guidelines for which to use for public charging. (To be fair their focus is mostly on safety)

The Government was very slow to pick up the slack here, and to place a recommendation (to be fair, the setting of electrical standards isn't normally the domain of the government, so hard to blame them for this).

The Low Emission Vehicles Contestable Fund has very specific guidelines, set by the beehive. I think the EECA as managers of the fund must strictly follow these. Unfortunately funding to swap out the plugs didn't appear to fit the criteria well. I don't think the government envisioned the scheme be used for this purpose when it requested applications, and it is hardly fair on other applicants to change the rules in the middle of the process.


 
 
 
 


kingdragonfly
5117 posts

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  #1723707 21-Feb-2017 13:37
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I spotted this unusual used Toyota Coms for sale in Japan.

Click to see full size

I think it's in the category of "Neighborhood Electric Vehicle"

I'm pretty sure it's NOT street legal.

Might be popular on a golf course / private security, since it has a top speed of 30 MPH / 48 KPH.

This 2014 is kinda expensive at NZ $10,000 plus shipping and GST.

http://earthtechling.com/2012/07/toyota-coms-electric-vehicle-one-sexy-golf-cart/

https://www.tradecarview.com/used_car/toyota/toyota+others/20253830/

Linuxluver

5615 posts

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  #1724225 22-Feb-2017 07:49
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JPT:

 

 

 

Thank you, very helpful explanations. It appears to me that any EV with a Mennekes or Type 2 CCS DCFC in NZ is not going on a long road trip, unless

 

- the public charging situation changes (appears most unlikely at this stage), or

 

- one is keen to have 3 overnight charges between Auckland and Wellington (even less likely)!

 

EECA's stance is staggering, actually favouring more petrol and diesel cars, because so many new EV models are now Type 2. I wish I could withdraw my EECA levies!

 

It looks like NZ cannot come up with a coordinated approach between Central Government goals, NZTA announcements and EECA support.

 

What a mess.

 

Perhaps the sales of EVs will plummet similarly to Australia's figures, as reported in 'EV Talk', Feb 2017 edition?

 



I'll have to correct myself.

The WEL fast chargers at Raglan, Te Kauwhata and Maui St in Te Rapa all have 43kw Type 2 AC charging cables. So if you're in the Waikato or travelling to the Waikato from Auckland, you'd have no trouble with a Zoe. In Auckland, you won't need one because you'd charge at home and the car has a 300km range.....meaning you might charge once / week whether it needed it or not (unless you're a taxi). Unless I'm going out of town I need only charge my 30kWh LEAF once or twice a week. 

Any EV that can talk "CHAdeMO" is OK......so that's LEAFs and Teslas at the very least. 

It will come right over the next year. 






_____________________________________________________________________
If you order a Tesla, click my referral code below to order your car and get free stuff. 

 

My Tesla referral code: https://ts.la/steve52356


PhantomNVD
2621 posts

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  #1724772 22-Feb-2017 21:55
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And if you have a 16a caravan adapter, basically any Motorhome/campground would be able to give you an 'emergency' top up charge too?

I'm just ow thinking what a fantastic 'toad' an EV would make as a small light drive around car and a great battery bank for my Motorhome too :)

If parked up for any length of time, my 500w solar bank could even give it a decent power boost too...

This mind boggles at the possibilities 😆

Linuxluver

5615 posts

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  #1724832 23-Feb-2017 06:51
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Scott3:

 

Frankly, Unless you are an enthusiast with time to burn, I don't see it as realistic to take any of the a long road trip (like Auckland to Wellington) in any of the sub tesla pure electrics... Take a gas car, fly, or if you are feeling green, the bus (they even have one with beds on it now) or the train (I think they still hook up an electric locomotive for most of the trip)

Regarding the Zoe, (with no DC fast charge and 22/43kW charging ability), this looks likely to become a bit of a tech orphan over time, 22kW is a bit slow for "fast charging" (especially on a 41kWh battery), and 43kW is a currently a little rare. Renault have committed to ditching 43kW Ac for the next zoe, in favor of 22kW AC & (unknown kW) DC via CCS type 2, by 2019. As such I would pick investment in 43kW AC charging to weaken.

That said, Renault reckons the "summer" range of the 41kWh Zoe is 190miles (305km). If you live in Auckland (by euro standards we are summer year round) you do the following trips (assuming you are going to stay with family etc for a couple of days to charge back up for the way home):

 

  • Auckland to Hamilton RETURN - 250km (stop at Te Kauwhata 43kW charger (WEL) on the way back if a bit low)
  • Auckland to Raglan - 150km (with 43kW charger for return trip if needed)
  • Auckland to Tauranga - 211km
  • Auckland to Rotorua - 230km
  • Auckland to Kerikeri - 240km (stop at whangarei / Marsden 22kW (Northpower) charger if low)
  • Auckland to Taupo - 275km (1 stop at WEL Hamilton 43kW for comfort)
  • Auckland to Whakatane - 296km (stop at Te Kauwhata 43kW charger (WEL) for comfort), 22kW charger at destination for return trip if needed)
  • Auckland to Kaitaia - 310 km - (stop at whangarei / Marsden 22kW (Northpower) charger for a boost)
  • Auckland to Ohakune - 360km (Pushing the limits, Stop at WEL Hamilton 43kW for full charge - second leg 239km)
  • Auckland to New Plymouth - 361 km (Pushing the limits, Stop at WEL Hamilton 43kW for full charge - second leg 239km)


As AC public chargers move to "Type 2" sockets, I would expect to see a lot more 22kW AC sockets around, but personally don't expect many more 43kW AC charges beyond what exists.


 

Regarding the Type 2 CCS situation, there are a few around already. The agreement that the Type 1 CCS cords need to be swapped out ASAP seems widespread (I don't know where BMW NZ stand on this though). The only sticking point seems to be the funding (cira $100k) required to do so. Fingers crossed that this will happen this year. Timeline needs to be locked in or Hyundai Iconic sales will suffer...


 

This standards issue stems from the electrical standards committees (NZ & AUS) selecting an IEC standard for NZ & AUS Electric vehicle charging that encompassed both type 1 & type 2 plugs, while providing no guidelines for which to use for public charging. (To be fair their focus is mostly on safety)

The Government was very slow to pick up the slack here, and to place a recommendation (to be fair, the setting of electrical standards isn't normally the domain of the government, so hard to blame them for this).

The Low Emission Vehicles Contestable Fund has very specific guidelines, set by the beehive. I think the EECA as managers of the fund must strictly follow these. Unfortunately funding to swap out the plugs didn't appear to fit the criteria well. I don't think the government envisioned the scheme be used for this purpose when it requested applications, and it is hardly fair on other applicants to change the rules in the middle of the process.

 

 

A 41kWh Zoe would be a great "regional" car.....but if Renault wanted to sell them they would need to chip in some money for the charging network that supports them. The same goes for Hyundai. Granted, they don't need to do this with petrol because the "standard" was settled 70 years ago. Tesla understood the need to show leadership on charging years ago and they have been aggressively rolling out their own leading edge charging network everywhere they sell cars. This is one of the reasons I will buy a Tesla Model 3. It will likely be able to charge at 350kw DC on the Supercharger 2.0 chargers. Combined with the 400km-500km range they will support (depending on battery option)  it should be possible to drive Auckland to Wellington with a single charging stop of about 15-20 mins.

As for the standards......government has set them for petrol and diesel but only by accepting the defacto industry standards decided overseas.

Electric is different. The winners will be the ones who install the chargers to charge their cars best. Aside from Tesla in NZ, BMW see this by investing in the Charge.Net network here.  Others should (as in, dumb if they don't) follow. If anything, I would be worried about petrol station operators......they could lead this in partnership with car makers. But they (generally) aren't. As EVs increase in number (well over 100% growth in NZ over the past year) they will see a decline in their revenue. 

 





_____________________________________________________________________
If you order a Tesla, click my referral code below to order your car and get free stuff. 

 

My Tesla referral code: https://ts.la/steve52356


Linuxluver

5615 posts

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  #1724884 23-Feb-2017 09:00
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PhantomNVD: And if you have a 16a caravan adapter, basically any Motorhome/campground would be able to give you an 'emergency' top up charge too?

I'm just ow thinking what a fantastic 'toad' an EV would make as a small light drive around car and a great battery bank for my Motorhome too :)

If parked up for any length of time, my 500w solar bank could even give it a decent power boost too...

This mind boggles at the possibilities 😆

 

Exactly. Yes. They can also easily charge on a regular household power point, too. It just takes longer. A 24kWh (battery) Nissan LEAF charges at about 8% per hour on a normal 10amp house power point. If you only half drain the battery each day (70-100km of driving, depending on the model) then it only takes about 6 hours to top it up.......but for the long term life of the battery its more usual to charge up to 80% daily...and only go to 100% when you really need the extra distance (first leg of a longer journey or a bigger distance between two chargers). 

 

On a 16amp blue commando power point my LEAF charges at 12%-13% per hour.....so a half-fill is about 4 hours.

At 32amp (most public 'destination' chargers) my LEAF can charge at 22% per hour....or half-full in just over 2 hours. My 30kWh LEAF's range is 180km (driving fast in the hills) to 250km (driving slower or on flat ground) depending on terrain and speed. A 30kWh LEAF can do over 300km if driven at 40kph.......but few have the opportunity or patience. ;-)  

At 50kw DC it's 4% to 95% in 38 minutes (tested it, that was the result).  But for 20% to 80% it's about 20 mins. 





_____________________________________________________________________
If you order a Tesla, click my referral code below to order your car and get free stuff. 

 

My Tesla referral code: https://ts.la/steve52356


Linuxluver

5615 posts

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  #1724889 23-Feb-2017 09:07
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kingdragonfly: I spotted this unusual used Toyota Coms for sale in Japan.

Click to see full size

I think it's in the category of "Neighborhood Electric Vehicle"

I'm pretty sure it's NOT street legal.

Might be popular on a golf course / private security, since it has a top speed of 30 MPH / 48 KPH.

This 2014 is kinda expensive at NZ $10,000 plus shipping and GST.

http://earthtechling.com/2012/07/toyota-coms-electric-vehicle-one-sexy-golf-cart/

https://www.tradecarview.com/used_car/toyota/toyota+others/20253830/


These should be in the moped category.......the Renault Twizy is the same, though it can do up to 80kph. They should be allowed on streets in much the same way as electric bicycles or mopeds. 





_____________________________________________________________________
If you order a Tesla, click my referral code below to order your car and get free stuff. 

 

My Tesla referral code: https://ts.la/steve52356


Hunter
67 posts

Master Geek


  #1725204 23-Feb-2017 14:36
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Linuxluver

Many thanks for a very informative thread. Without the usual flame wars and arguments ICE vs EV
Sure answer many of my questions.
I have a few that you may be able to answer for me.

1. Is it possible to extend the range of your Leaf by modification with extra batteries ? Say in the boot area.
2. If so, is it legal to mod the car, as in dangerous.
3. Do you have to pay RUC with your Leaf ?
4. Car insurance about the same as a similar ICE ?
5. How much is it for you to use ChargeNet facilities ?


Beccara
1287 posts

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  #1725210 23-Feb-2017 14:44
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1) In theory but its alot of $$$ - Nissan tech's doubles the 22kw battery in a test but thats about it i think

 

2) I doubt it would be legal without an electrical engineers signoff

 

3) No RUC's until 2020

 

4) My leaf's insurance is around the same if not slightly less

 

5) Chargenet normally charge 25c/kw + 25c/min but it can vary from charger to charger, Typically my 2012 leaf takes 25min to charge up and costs around $8-10, A trip from Whangarei to Auckland with only free charging in Auckland cost me $22 a few weeks back





Most problems are the result of previous solutions...

All comment's I make are my own personal opinion and do not in any way, shape or form reflect the views of current or former employers unless specifically stated 

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