EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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2112 posts

Uber Geek

#2601562 11-Nov-2020 10:21

Dingbatt:

CYaBro:

MG has dropped the price of the ZS EV to $48,990 +ORC.

https://mgmotor.co.nz/models/mg-zsev/

Be interesting to see if they hold that price when the feebate gets resurrected. $42K for a brand new EV is getting to the point where it is affordable for a whole new bunch of people.

Indeed. It'd be very close to Toyota's CH-R prices and Mazda's CX3. Close enough that the petrol and maint savings would make up the difference.

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HarmLessSolutions

947 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#2601583 11-Nov-2020 10:39

Dingbatt:

CYaBro:

MG has dropped the price of the ZS EV to $48,990 +ORC.

https://mgmotor.co.nz/models/mg-zsev/

Be interesting to see if they hold that price when the feebate gets resurrected. $42K for a brand new EV is getting to the point where it is affordable for a whole new bunch of people.

The real driver of EV uptake will be as pricing reaches (and goes below) parity with ICEs. The MG is moving toward that price point and Tesla's recent battery tech announcements will see their models drop in price significantly in the next year or two. Other manufacturers will be forced to follow suit or flounder.

Once EVs reach pricing equal or lower than similarly spec'd ICE vehicles the choice of going electric becomes a no-brainer for most people. The minisule maintenance and big reductions in energy (fuel) costs make an EV the obvious choice.

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kingdragonfly

10961 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#2601587 11-Nov-2020 10:41

I too suspect there won't be a freebate for next year, at least.

The government spending money like crazy, and while a COVID vaccine looks promising, it'll be a while before normalcy returns.

If I were king, I'd let loose the many billions wasted on the Tiwai aluminium smelter and the associated pumped hydro project, and put that money toward EV's.

Regarding the pump hydro, Energy Minister Megan Woods, just wants a project to hang her hat on, rather than any serious analysis of options based on merit.

I've been told she is only interested in pumped hydro, and will not even consider other options, even from Tesla.

Some have proposed the $4 billion pumped hydro project may actually increase power costs. The power is way too far away from where it's needed, Auckland. Also it seem foolish to run power cables through the many earthquake prone areas (not to mention volcanoes)

There is a very quiet New Zealand startup called "Energy Bank". (I'm not associated.)

Basically they'd use the ocean's depth to advantage. Ocean buoys raise / lower giant weights using a motor / generate to store energy. The concrete weights would be heavier than an aircraft carrier.

One of these could literally store more energy than even a large coal-power plant; storage in the Terawatt/Hour range.

Tiwai aluminium smelter a 'priority' for new Government

Will pumped hydro result in significant energy price hikes for NZ

Dingbatt

6732 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2601597 11-Nov-2020 10:51

kingdragonfly: I too suspect there won't be a freebate (sic)for next year, at least.

The government spending money like crazy, and while a COVID vaccine looks promising, it'll be a while before normalcy returns.

I thought the whole idea of the feebate was that it was cost neutral? Surcharges on high emission vehicles to pay for rebates on low/no emission ones.

My fear is that car companies will jack the price of EVs up as soon as any scheme is announced. Effectively putting the cash in their pockets rather than going to EV owners. There will be supply and demand type arguments about how the RRP needed to rise.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

frankv

5678 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

#2601626 11-Nov-2020 11:22

HarmLessSolutions:

Once EVs reach pricing equal or lower than similarly spec'd ICE vehicles the choice of going electric becomes a no-brainer for most people. The minisule maintenance and big reductions in energy (fuel) costs make an EV the obvious choice.

Except if you want to go on long trips. I know that charging stations are becoming common, and all that. And fast-chargers. But, for example, consider the thousands who go skiing from Auckland or Wellington. When I lived in Wgtn, we'd leave work Friday night and head for the mountain, picking up takeaways at Bulls to eat in the car. Get to the Top o'the Bruce somewhere around 10-11pm (followed by a climb to the hut between 20 minutes and an hour). Time's at a premium when you're arriving late at night, and don't want to sleep in... an extra hour for charging pushes it beyond feasible. And you don't want to get halfway up the mountain and run out of juice.

I do agree it will be a no-brainer for most families' *second* car.

wellygary

8171 posts

Uber Geek

#2601629 11-Nov-2020 11:28

kingdragonfly:

Regarding the pump hydro, Energy Minister Megan Woods, just wants a project to hang her hat on, rather than any serious analysis of options based on merit.

I've been told she is only interested in pumped hydro, and will not even consider other options, even from Tesla.

Some have proposed the $4 billion pumped hydro project may actually increase power costs. The power is way too far away from where it's needed, Auckland. Also it seem foolish to run power cables through the many earthquake prone areas (not to mention volcanoes)

Everyone I've talked to in the industry says its simply uneconomic ( mind you. green hydrogen is also totally uneconomic in NZ, but the government continues to plough on regardless)

The only way that pumped hydro will work is if it gets a multi billion handout from the taxpayer...- but then how you intergrate that into a system that is full of "for profit" commercial generators...

Also I'm baffled why it takes $30 million for a business case....

Obraik

2112 posts

Uber Geek

#2601630 11-Nov-2020 11:29

frankv:

Except if you want to go on long trips. I know that charging stations are becoming common, and all that. And fast-chargers. But, for example, consider the thousands who go skiing from Auckland or Wellington. When I lived in Wgtn, we'd leave work Friday night and head for the mountain, picking up takeaways at Bulls to eat in the car. Get to the Top o'the Bruce somewhere around 10-11pm (followed by a climb to the hut between 20 minutes and an hour). Time's at a premium when you're arriving late at night, and don't want to sleep in... an extra hour for charging pushes it beyond feasible. And you don't want to get halfway up the mountain and run out of juice.

I do agree it will be a no-brainer for most families' *second* car.

It's not just the prices getting cheaper but the range is increasing at the same time.

There are already many EVs that will go from Auckland or Wellington to the ski fields without needing to stop. Ski fields like Mt Ruapehū even have EV chargers in the parking lot so you can top up while skiing. It's well on the way to being a non-issue

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HarmLessSolutions

947 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#2601634 11-Nov-2020 11:35

frankv:

HarmLessSolutions:

Once EVs reach pricing equal or lower than similarly spec'd ICE vehicles the choice of going electric becomes a no-brainer for most people. The minisule maintenance and big reductions in energy (fuel) costs make an EV the obvious choice.

Except if you want to go on long trips. I know that charging stations are becoming common, and all that. And fast-chargers. But, for example, consider the thousands who go skiing from Auckland or Wellington. When I lived in Wgtn, we'd leave work Friday night and head for the mountain, picking up takeaways at Bulls to eat in the car. Get to the Top o'the Bruce somewhere around 10-11pm (followed by a climb to the hut between 20 minutes and an hour). Time's at a premium when you're arriving late at night, and don't want to sleep in... an extra hour for charging pushes it beyond feasible. And you don't want to get halfway up the mountain and run out of juice.

I do agree it will be a no-brainer for most families' *second* car.

That's why I said 'most people'. There will always be those that need to do long non-stop trips and/or tow a boat or caravan around the country and until such time as charging logistics become as quick as refilling a fuel tank they will remain reliant on ICEs. One potential solution in this regard is swapping out the entire battery which is something Tesla has experimented with and Heydan Paddon is considering for his EV rally car.

Incidentally we have a Leaf that serves as our primary vehicle with our aging Commodore being our *second* car for out of province travel and trailer towing. The Commodore is gassed up at 4-6 weekly intervals which is an indication of its lack of use.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

GV27

5859 posts

Uber Geek

#2601667 11-Nov-2020 11:57

Battery swapping is a dead duck, we haven't been able to get phone makers to agree on cables (even EV makers) and suddenly they're going to have universal structure vehicle components?

When I was younger I could do a full Bathurst stint of driving in one day without many stops but partners and kids etc get mean you won't realistically be driving for five hours without a ten minute break every few hours anyway. That's the optimum recharging time for an EV and we're on track to get there, probably sooner than some might think.

Many households have more than one vehicle for different tasks and separating my boring small-distance commute from my weekend blats will let me switch up cars and use one to pay for the other, without losing any functionality across my garage. Win win.

EnragedStoat

14 posts

Geek

#2601732 11-Nov-2020 12:46

GV27:

Battery swapping is a dead duck, we haven't been able to get phone makers to agree on cables (even EV makers) and suddenly they're going to have universal structure vehicle components?

Dead? In NZ almost certainly. Not dead everywhere though. 3 minutes to swap, free for original owners (about $20 otherwise), most coverage along eastern China highways.

tripper1000

1600 posts

Uber Geek

#2601835 11-Nov-2020 14:20

kingdragonfly: ...If I were king, I'd let loose the many billions wasted on the Tiwai aluminium smelter ....

Whoa, fact check: Except not a single dollar, let alone millions are presently or going to be spent (let alone wasted) on Tiwai. Rio aren't asking for any kind of handout. They are simple asking to pay fair transmission costs.

Transpower's transmission cost calculator is broken in a uniquely socialist way - when the rest of the electricity system has been commercialised. They bill you on the percentage of N.Z.'s total power that you use, not how much it actually costs to get the power from the power station to you. This means consumers near the power stations (heavily) subsidise those far away and it stilts the electricity market such as where power stations are built - as you allude to in the pumped-hydro location comment.

Rio pays 14% of N.Z.'s transmission costs despite using less than 1% of the Trans power capacity. When a company in Southland is using power generated in Southland but is paying for powerline upgrades in the Waikato and Auckland, the system is proper broken.

This is why the closure of Tiwai is going to result in higher power bills for everyone else in NZ, contrary to the anti-industrialists claims.

The Govt makes a lot of tax income, directly and indirectly from Tiwai. The closure of Tiwai is going to make a measurable dent in NZ's economic fortunes (lower GDP, lower exports, higher welfare) and will also accelerate climate change (replacing of zero-carbon aluminium production with coal powered aluminium production). No environmentalist or economist with a conscience should be allowing this.

wellygary

8171 posts

Uber Geek

#2601848 11-Nov-2020 14:33

tripper1000:

The Govt makes a lot of tax income, directly and indirectly from Tiwai. The closure of Tiwai is going to make a measurable dent in NZ's economic fortunes (lower GDP, lower exports, higher welfare) and will also accelerate climate change (replacing of zero-carbon aluminium production with coal powered aluminium production). No environmentalist or economist with a conscience should be allowing this.

Labour will give them a cheaper transmission cost, (the tax payer will wear the cost, not the rest of the electricity users) to ensure the smelter keeps running past the 2023 election....

frankv

5678 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2601897 11-Nov-2020 15:28

tripper1000:

kingdragonfly: ...If I were king, I'd let loose the many billions wasted on the Tiwai aluminium smelter ....

Whoa, fact check: Except not a single dollar, let alone millions are presently or going to be spent (let alone wasted) on Tiwai. Rio aren't asking for any kind of handout. They are simple asking to pay fair transmission costs.

Transpower's transmission cost calculator is broken in a uniquely socialist way - when the rest of the electricity system has been commercialised.

Hang on a minute. Who owns the water and the power? Why should Rio Tinto get it at cost price, or even cost price plus a percentage? The NZ taxpayer built the dam and the transmission lines, in the expectation of getting a return, which would be returned to the taxpayer. Why shouldn't Rio Tinto pay whatever the market will stand for the power they get? Whether they do that via a "broken" socialist transmission cost calculation or via a capitalist what-the-market-will-stand calculation is irrelevant.

It's sophistry to suggest that not taking our return from the investment is any different from giving money to Rio Tinto.

Spend the money to connect Manapouri to Auckland and we will have a third alternative to selling to Tiwai or spilling the water. And then we'll drive the Tiwai price to Auckland power prices.

tripper1000

1600 posts

Uber Geek

#2601898 11-Nov-2020 15:31

wellygary: Labour will give them a cheaper transmission cost, (the tax payer will wear the cost, not the rest of the electricity users) to ensure the smelter keeps running past the 2023 election....

Negative ghost rider. From the article kingdragonfly linked: "Ardern stressed that Labour would not subsidise Rio Tinto's power costs, but would ask Transpower to review its line charges to help get a deal done".

tripper1000

1600 posts

Uber Geek

#2601905 11-Nov-2020 15:42

frankv:

minute. Who owns the water and the power? Why should Rio Tinto get it at cost price, or even cost price plus a percentage? The NZ taxpayer built the dam and the transmission lines, in the expectation of getting a return, which would be returned to the taxpayer. Why shouldn't Rio Tinto pay whatever the market will stand for the power they get? Whether they do that via a "broken" socialist transmission cost calculation or via a capitalist what-the-market-will-stand calculation is irrelevant.

It's sophistry to suggest that not taking our return from the investment is any different from giving money to Rio Tinto.

Spend the money to connect Manapouri to Auckland and we will have a third alternative to selling to Tiwai or spilling the water. And then we'll drive the Tiwai price to Auckland power prices.

Meridian own the power station and the rights to the water. They can sell the power to whom ever they choose and what ever price they agree. Return on investment criteria is between the Meridian board and shareholders. Dream on if you thing Meridian is going to give Joe-public cheap electricity.

Transpower is Govt owned and required to be cost neutral. The way they are recovering their costs is unbalanced. They are not mandated to gouge one user to benefit others.

The Govt blocked Rio from investing in its own power lines which is Cartel like behaviour.

The original builders of Tiwai (The Commonwealth Aluminium Corporation Pty Ltd) also wanted to build and own Manapouri but the Govt of they day was on a Hydro building binge said it would buidl and operate it on behalf. We are now welshing on this agreement.

Edit: This is why power lines to fully link Manapouri to the National Grid where never needed/required.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manapouri_Power_Station

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