EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#2625504 22-Dec-2020 15:05

Scott3:

Japans ban in the mid 2030's is very meek compared to the Uk's, as it continues to allow non plug in hybrids (both mild and full). So large numbers of the likes of the suzuki swift mild hybrid will continue to be available in NZ for decades.

Just because Japan wants to sell their cars to NZ doesn't mean we have to buy them. Given adequate supply of BEVs with adequate range at affordable prices (I foresee China becoming our major new-vehicle supplier), there's no reason to allow importation of non plugin hybrids, or indeed hybrids of any sort.

wellygary

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#2625505 22-Dec-2020 15:07

Scott3:

In NZ, the labour party campaigned on introducing the clean car standard, which will require importers have a fleet average emissions of 105g co2/km in 2025 (i think) - about 4.5L/100km. This means if say Nissan wants to sell a single high margin Y62 patrol, they will need to make it a heap more efficient, or sell 2.2 Nissan leaf's to protect their average.

Assuming that law gets passed, we are likely to see a lot of EV's for sale by 2025, and cars emitting more than 105g co2/km to carry high price tags as importers try to steer buyers to more efficient cars to protect their fleet averages.

The details around the fleet "averaging" will be key, and could be controversial.

If they follow most other countries, inter company trading will be allowed, so low/no emission marques ( Tesla- Suzuki etc) will be able to sell off any of the "surplus" emission reductions they have under the 105g limit to the high emitting fleet companies (big SUV/ute sellers)

But the EV/low emitting companies tend to pocket this "cream" as a straight profit rather than passing it on to the customers in savings as there is not a lot of competition at that end of the market....

Linuxluver

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#2625506 22-Dec-2020 15:08

I've had my new MG ZS EV for about 5 weeks now. I picked it up in Napier in mid-November and drove it to Opotiki. Since then, I've had a chance to drive to Tauranga and back, as well as a return trip to Auckland (there and back - same day).

A trip to Auckland means one stop to charge for about 20-30 minutes somewhere around Waihi or Matamata, depending on which route I take. That's what I would do in an ICE. I'm not one of these people who stares through the steering wheel for 5 hours with a bottle between my knees in case I need to pee. :-)

It's a great car. I drive it like an ICE, really. The range is about 260-275km if you're a normal person. The battery is 44.5kWh. I love the panoramic glass roof. It's new for $48,990 including ORC.

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kingdragonfly

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#2625507 22-Dec-2020 15:10

Scott3: Assuming that law gets passed, we are likely to see a lot of EV's for sale by 2025, and cars emitting more than 105g co2/km to carry high price tags as importers try to steer buyers to more efficient cars to protect their fleet averages.

That's exactly what happened in the US, with Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE).

A study came to these conclusions:

CAFE standards work best when implemented in conjunction with the financial support.
EV market penetration likely to increase faster with a greater deployment of recharging stations.
The manufacturers tend to comply with the CAFE standards by changing the design of ICEVs.

wellygary

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#2625527 22-Dec-2020 15:51

kingdragonfly:
Scott3: Assuming that law gets passed, we are likely to see a lot of EV's for sale by 2025, and cars emitting more than 105g co2/km to carry high price tags as importers try to steer buyers to more efficient cars to protect their fleet averages.

That's exactly what happened in the US, with Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE).

A study came to these conclusions:

CAFE standards work best when implemented in conjunction with the financial support.

EV market penetration likely to increase faster with a greater deployment of recharging stations.

The manufacturers tend to comply with the CAFE standards by changing the design of ICEVs.

CAFE has one huge gaping hole.

It is not a fleet standard, but a set of standards for different classes of vehicle,

So yes while the MPGs for Cars and light trucks all show significant improvement, the composition of the vehicles entering the fleet shifted hugely from cars to Light Truck/SUV/Crossovers so that for the actual overall fleet Mpg didn't improve much at all

gzt

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#2625566 22-Dec-2020 16:37

Obraik:
gzt:
Trains and freight trucks are early applications. California has a personal transport cars and a few filling stations. Imo the technical problems are overstated.

Trains don't make a lot of sense when most of the line can be electrified - the gaps can be filled with a battery large enough to get between them which is charged as it travels over the electrified portions. In New Zealand, ignoring the fact that most of our intercity transporting should be taken over by trains, hydrogen trucks are quickly becoming irrelevant as well. Something like a Tesla Semi has enough range to cover the legal travel time a truck driver can operate.

The technical problems are quite real.

Trains. Line electrification is expensive. UK and Germany have around 50% of national track electrified. Both are looking at hydrogen fuel cell electric trains to bridge the gaps in electric track. UK is converting some existing stock and will begin mainline testing in March:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200227-how-hydrogen-powered-trains-can-tackle-climate-change

Germany has a new train from the ground up:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/23/business/hydrogen-train-siemens/index.html

Toyota ships hydrogen cars to Australia next year:

https://thewest.com.au/lifestyle/motoring/2021-toyota-mirai-hydrogen-car-confirmed-for-australia-but-only-for-select-business-and-government-fleets-ng-b881723671z

You may be aware hydrogen trucks are arriving in NZ next year:

https://i.stuff.co.nz/motoring/122636171/zeroemission-hydrogen-heavy-trucks-to-hit-kiwi-roads

Toyota"s stated bias for hydrogen is well known. Toyota has hydrogen trucks trialing in USA.

Techniclal challenges are not preventing multiple applications. There are many paths to improvment but overall imo the technical challenges are overstated.

Geektastic

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#2625605 22-Dec-2020 19:08

Linuxluver: I've had my new MG ZS EV for about 5 weeks now. I picked it up in Napier in mid-November and drove it to Opotiki. Since then, I've had a chance to drive to Tauranga and back, as well as a return trip to Auckland (there and back - same day).

A trip to Auckland means one stop to charge for about 20-30 minutes somewhere around Waihi or Matamata, depending on which route I take. That's what I would do in an ICE. I'm not one of these people who stares through the steering wheel for 5 hours with a bottle between my knees in case I need to pee. :-)

It's a great car. I drive it like an ICE, really. The range is about 260-75km if you're normal person. The battery is 44.5kWh. It's new for $48,990 including ORC.

That bears an astonishing resemblance to a Subaru Forester! Like twins.

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Geektastic

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#2625607 22-Dec-2020 19:10

tdgeek:

Geektastic:

Imagine all those people stopping for lunch when there’s 3 million EVs....

True... I guess at the moment no one stops for lunch anywhere... /s

Probably for less time than it takes to charge a car - and many people eat whilst driving...

morrisk

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#2625611 22-Dec-2020 19:12

Geektastic: It’s really quite straightforward: once EVs are available that are no less convenient than current ice vehicles to charge, have as many useful variants and cost similar amounts, people will happily swap.
Until that time, it’s going to be a niche for early adopters and/or the well off.

Hydrogen is probably more practical in many ways for many users.

I can’t see NZ significantly adopting either in less than 25 years.

Except we haven't got 25 years to fiddle while Rome burns.

Geektastic

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#2625612 22-Dec-2020 19:16

Obraik:

Geektastic:
I can’t see NZ significantly adopting either in less than 25 years.

With the UK passing a ban on new ICE vehicles from 2030 and Japan looking to do something similar, there simply won't be new RHD ICE vehicles for New Zealanders to buy.

Many a slip twixt cup and lip.

I don't think the UK will make that deadline and neither does anyone else who I know who lives there to be honest. Politicians make stuff up to get votes then as the deadline approaches and reality bites, deadlines start to stretch.

Geektastic

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#2625613 22-Dec-2020 19:17

morrisk:

Geektastic: It’s really quite straightforward: once EVs are available that are no less convenient than current ice vehicles to charge, have as many useful variants and cost similar amounts, people will happily swap.
Until that time, it’s going to be a niche for early adopters and/or the well off.

Hydrogen is probably more practical in many ways for many users.

I can’t see NZ significantly adopting either in less than 25 years.

Except we haven't got 25 years to fiddle while Rome burns.

If you say so. We cannot even improve the current car fleet (we do not even have a proper emissions test in the WOF yet!) because every time it is suggested it is decried as "too expensive".

Well, if that is too expensive, a volte face to full on electric is going to make that look like pocket change. I just cannot see where all this money is going to come from.

I reckon we will at best end up with a list of exceptions as long as your arm - for example, powering agricultural machinery on batteries is not going to happen any time soon: how do you run a combine or a forage harvester for 18 hour non stop work days on batteries?

gzt

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#2625615 22-Dec-2020 19:21

Geektastic: That bears an astonishing resemblance to a Subaru Forester! Like twins.

I might have mistaken this for a little Holden on a casual glance

jonathan18

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#2625622 22-Dec-2020 19:47

gzt:
Geektastic: That bears an astonishing resemblance to a Subaru Forester! Like twins.

I might have mistaken this for a little Holden on a casual glance

And I see it as a ‘homage’ to Mazdas like the CX5...

tdgeek

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#2625681 23-Dec-2020 06:04

Geektastic:

If you say so. We cannot even improve the current car fleet (we do not even have a proper emissions test in the WOF yet!) because every time it is suggested it is decried as "too expensive".

Well, if that is too expensive, a volte face to full on electric is going to make that look like pocket change. I just cannot see where all this money is going to come from.

I reckon we will at best end up with a list of exceptions as long as your arm - for example, powering agricultural machinery on batteries is not going to happen any time soon: how do you run a combine or a forage harvester for 18 hour non stop work days on batteries?

You're just focussing on edge cases and being negative. If EV's were cheaper, so that the premium was recoverable in a few years by fuel savings, and plentiful, they would sell like hot cakes. Because most people are green? No. because its a financially cheaper than an ICE. Who cares if large farm equipment is largely oil based? Then you have solid state batteries. Hydrogen can replace diesel for edge cases such as farm equipment.

frankv

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#2625698 23-Dec-2020 08:21

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/119177256/kiwi-companies-team-up-to-build-hydrogen-refueling-network

Hiringa Energy has been involved with the production of "green" hydrogen - that is hydrogen that is created from renewable electricity - for a number of years now, receiving a $950,000 grant from the government in 2018 to develop plans for hydrogen production and a refuelling network and teaming up with Ballance Agri-Nutrients last year to produce green hydrogen at Ballance's Kapuni ammonia urea plant in South Taranaki.

The Kapuni ammonia urea plant takes natural gas as its raw material. How is hydrogen produced from natural gas "green" or "created from renewable electricity"?

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