EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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#2627976 29-Dec-2020 22:22

tdgeek:

Whats the issue with hybrids? IMHO they rock

I have no issues with hybrids. I own one myself. It is a very nice car.

My issue is how many media organisations are portraying Japans announcement. In my eyes, my (non plug-in) hybrid car is very much a gasoline powered car, just one that is a bit more efficient, smoother & more powerful than the equivalent non hybrid model.

In my eyes japan going hybrid or electric only in 2035 while good, isn't exactly a ground breaking move. Automakers will just start dropping low cost 48v (possibly even 12v) mild hybrid systems into everything, and only enjoy tiny fuel savings, and negligible other operational advantages vs a non hybrid. Compare the specs of a non hybrid and hybrid suzuki swift (mild hybrid) and a non hybrid & hybrid Toyota rav4 (good full hybrid).

The UK announcement (Plug in vehicles only from 2030, and Pure EV's only from 2035) is much more groundbreaking, and will be a lot more challenging for Automakers to deliver to.

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tdgeek

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#2627978 29-Dec-2020 22:37

Obraik: Plug in hybrids? Sure....they're quickly becoming irrelevant but they can at least drive on full EV power for most commutes and get their power from the (clean) grid.

Traditional hybrids mostly use petrol for much of the time they're driving, except for when they're crawling through a car park. All its electric power is generated from the petrol it consumes. They were a great starting point in the early 2000s but they're now a lazy way for car makers to pretend they have "green" stock (Toyota...). In the 2030s that will be even more rediculous.

I agree, but my point is now. Climate change won't go into idle until 2030. I can buy an EV now for cash if I want, a good few times over, so can you probably, That does nothing for climate change, as the vast majority of people cannot buy a new car let alone a new EV. (No,not everyone will settle for an old Leaf) I have a friend, low income, traded his Atenza for an Accord (or Civic, not sure) non plug in hybrid. EV side assists the car, engine goes off at lights, 4l/100km he tells me. That is a person who will never afford a new EV and will buy an old EV in the distant future, but NOW he is reducing emissions. Thats my point. Having a LOT of people,e driving hybrids is worth a lot, its either that or they drive gas loving Atenza's etc.

tdgeek

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#2627980 29-Dec-2020 22:44

Scott3:

I have no issues with hybrids. I own one myself. It is a very nice car.

My issue is how many media organisations are portraying Japans announcement. In my eyes, my (non plug-in) hybrid car is very much a gasoline powered car, just one that is a bit more efficient, smoother & more powerful than the equivalent non hybrid model.

In my eyes japan going hybrid or electric only in 2035 while good, isn't exactly a ground breaking move. Automakers will just start dropping low cost 48v (possibly even 12v) mild hybrid systems into everything, and only enjoy tiny fuel savings, and negligible other operational advantages vs a non hybrid. Compare the specs of a non hybrid and hybrid suzuki swift (mild hybrid) and a non hybrid & hybrid Toyota rav4 (good full hybrid).

The UK announcement (Plug in vehicles only from 2030, and Pure EV's only from 2035) is much more groundbreaking, and will be a lot more challenging for Automakers to deliver to.

I generally agree but ignore Japan, or a Toyota or the UK. EV's wont become the cool thing based on those dates, it will be when buyers decide. Competition will decide EV prices, that will decide how many average people buy them, that will decide when ICE goes into museums. Lack of ability to produce in volume/recovering R+D means that manufacturers can sell what they make, so price decreases are minimal. Yes, still some competition. Once production ramps up, its all on. Can you remember when CDRW were $2500 and blanks $5 each? If I've got 10 widgets to sell and 100 want one, its FULL price, no deals. That will change.

Obraik

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#2627981 29-Dec-2020 22:45

Was that a second hand hybrid or a brand new one? The former is fine, but companies putting all their effort into new traditional hybrids today is my issue. It's absolute minimum effort by those companies - if MG can do it, the bigger companies can too. Yes, EVs are expensive for the low end but that's why the government should be doing what governments in other developed countries are doing and making subsidies available.

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jarledb

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#2627991 29-Dec-2020 23:30

gzt: Toyota announces cpod EV ultracompact Japan market only available to consumers 2022. The car is available today for business sales only:

Car and Driver:According to Toyota, the electric C+pod will have a WLTP range of 93 miles [150km] thanks to a 9.1-kWh battery pack. Its single 12-horsepower electric motor will push the tiny vehicle to a top speed of 37 mph [60kmh], so don’t expect to see it on the freeway anytime soon. It’s smaller than a Smart Fortwo and lines up more with the weird but enjoyable Renault Twizy.

What is strange is that Toyota have made the RAV4 as an electric car before, but as with many others they abandoned it as soon as they could (They were making it for the Californian market and their regulations).

Even stranger: Their current RAV4 Prime plug-in hybrid could easily be converted to a full EV with a bigger battery. But still they are not ready to launch a pure EV.

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Obraik

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#2627995 30-Dec-2020 00:25

One of those electric Rav4 models actually had a Tesla made drive train

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GV27

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#2628004 30-Dec-2020 06:56

gzt:
GV27: People make assumptions about Toyota. I would not underestimate them.

Agree. Toyota is in an excellent position with existing market dominance and the new solid state battery tech breakthrough in range and charging time.

People forget they got a reputation for building boring cars in the mid 2000s - now look at them. 86, Supra, a Yaris GR they didn't have to build but did, GR Hypercar...

Point being, they are capable of massive strategic chance in short order and are doing the legwork in the background.

tdgeek

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#2628022 30-Dec-2020 07:54

Obraik: Was that a second hand hybrid or a brand new one? The former is fine, but companies putting all their effort into new traditional hybrids today is my issue. It's absolute minimum effort by those companies - if MG can do it, the bigger companies can too. Yes, EVs are expensive for the low end but that's why the government should be doing what governments in other developed countries are doing and making subsidies available.

Second hand. I agree, but in the transition between imports being only EV and plug in EV, if we want to maximise emission control, any car that reduces emissions is a good thing. That car was about 6k, not the car we want to be importing in mass in years to come, but for a lower income earner, and NOW, his 10l/100km car is now a 4l/100km car, emissions are down. Similarly plug ins are a real option for many. They appear to be ICE priced, and for the daily commute, school and shopping runs, they are perfect, as they could be close to 100% EV used by many, are cheap so can use now. One day, all cars will be EV, but anything that can reduce emissions now is a good thing.

kingdragonfly

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#2642307 26-Jan-2021 13:16

The Verge: Biden wants to replace US government fleet with electric vehicles

President Joe Biden will start the process of phasing out the federal government’s use of gas-powered vehicles and replacing them with ones that run on electricity. The announcement is the fulfillment of a promise Biden made on the campaign trail to swap government fleet vehicles with American-made EVs.

“The federal government also owns an enormous fleet of vehicles, which we’re going to replace with clean electric vehicles made right here in America, by American workers,” Biden said during a briefing Monday announcing his “Buy American” executive order....

This is great news for US-based EV makers like Tesla, Rivian, and Lordstown, as well as legacy automakers like Ford and General Motors that are in the midst of multibillion-dollar investments in electric vehicle production.

As of 2019, there were nearly 650,000 vehicles in the federal government’s fleet.

Biden also promised to create a system that offers rebates or incentives for consumers to replace gas cars with electric vehicles — though there aren’t any more details about that plan at this moment.

The details of both plans are still being worked out, but taken together, they represent a huge win for the EV investments made by automakers over the last several years. Ford has said it will spend $11 billion introducing a raft of new EVs, including the Mustang Mach-E and an electric version of its best-selling F-150 pickup truck. GM has committed to spending $27 billion on electric and autonomous vehicles through 2025.

Meanwhile, Tesla’s remarkable stock market rally throughout 2020 has made it the most valuable automaker in the world, and its CEO Elon Musk the richest man on the planet.

Biden’s order may not be a direct win for Tesla, though, which has mostly focused on luxury and performance vehicles. Automakers that could benefit include Ford, which recently unveiled an electric version of its Transit vans, and GM, which just spun out a new company called BrightDrop focused on electric delivery vehicles.
...

kingdragonfly

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#2642308 26-Jan-2021 13:17

Let's Get Ready To Rumble: Electric Lordstown Endurance vs. Ford F-150 Tug Of War TO THE DEATH!

kingdragonfly

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#2642309 26-Jan-2021 13:20

GM’s NEW side hustle Brightdrop takes on logistics and delivery

HarmLessSolutions

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#2642380 26-Jan-2021 14:29

kingdragonfly: Let's Get Ready To Rumble: Electric Lordstown Endurance vs. Ford F-150 Tug Of War TO THE DEATH!

The table (at 6:20 on video) covering cost of ownership over 5 years is interesting and a good indication of the competitive economy of EVs (even with RUCs factored in).

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

davidcole

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#2642384 26-Jan-2021 14:38

Interestingly I didn't think our goverment were doing anythign with EVs....but I followed a CR643 or 647) yesterday towards Porirua. It was an Audi Etron.

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Obraik

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#2642389 26-Jan-2021 14:48

davidcole:

Interestingly I didn't think our goverment were doing anythign with EVs....but I followed a CR643 or 647) yesterday towards Porirua. It was an Audi Etron.

You may have missed some bits of news over the last few months 🙂

EV switch: Jacinda Ardern set to swap into fully-electric Audi e-tron - News - Driven

All Govt departments now required to buy electric vehicles – Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern - NZ Herald

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Scott3

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#2642677 26-Jan-2021 22:12

Obraik: Was that a second hand hybrid or a brand new one? The former is fine, but companies putting all their effort into new traditional hybrids today is my issue. It's absolute minimum effort by those companies - if MG can do it, the bigger companies can too. Yes, EVs are expensive for the low end but that's why the government should be doing what governments in other developed countries are doing and making subsidies available.

If you were asking me, Its a 2006 Lexus RX400h, that I brought second hand. It was $99,000 list price new, and I brought it a couple of years back for $13k. A lot of car for the money.

Re MG, that is a brand operated by SIAC, who reported 7.05 million vehicle sales in 2018. For comparison the VW group was the biggest automaker, with 10.83 million 2008 sales. Fair to say that MG is in the same ballpark as the other big players.

Re Toyota, they are in a sweet spot currently. Their (non plug in) hybrid tech is objectively market leading, and it is not clear that they backed the right horse bey investing in this. Many of the euro brands put big R&D into highly efficient diesels which are essentially a dead duck in smaller vehicles going forward. Not surprising that Toyota want's to make bank on it's current hybrid tech, without distracting it's customers with expensive to produce (and likely low margin) EV's. I has put just enough effort into it's hydrogen car, and it's two plug in to keep regulators off it's back while ensuring they sell in fairly low volumes. There is the odd article about them having skin in the game re solids state batteries, a tech that would be game-changing for EV's.

Nissan did what it took to be a major early player in the EV space (including cutting corners incl active battery cooling to keep prices down). This hasn't got them much loyalty from their owners, with many of them loving driving electric, but keen to switch to another brand when they upgrade. Not something toyota will want to replicate.

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