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Obraik
2007 posts

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  #2686424 4-Apr-2021 21:26
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RunningMan:

 

Tesla superchargers currently only worth with Tesla vehicles. I have read rumours of them opening up the network to other brands in Europe, not sure if that would also be the case here.

 

 

There was a bug in the V3 Europe superchargers that let any CCS2 vehicle charge on them free, however that was fixed.

 

Tesla's stance on opening up to other makers using their chargers is that they're more than welcome to if they will negotiate access fees with Tesla. So far, only one has 





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cthombor
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  #2686791 5-Apr-2021 18:34
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cthombor:

 

kingdragonfly: Note the Nissan e-NV200 is based on the Leaf.

It has active cooling: the A/C runs whenever it fast charges. However at least one reviewer thought "this system is mostly ineffective at cooling the pack, but likely somewhat capable of equalizing temperatures within the pack."

https://insideevs.com/heres-nissan-employs-active-air-cooling-e-nv200-battery-pack/

 

AFAIK -- from observation -- the active temp control (cooling or heating) on the battery in my 2014 e-NV200 only kicks in when I'm AC-charging.   But if I replaced its failed PTC resistive heater I'm pretty sure it'd work well at pre-heating, whether or not I'm charging or just idling in Drive mode.   Maybe even while parked in Accessory mode (but doing that for extended periods is a *bad idea* becuz it drains the 12V battery).

As with a Leaf, repeated fast charges of my e-NV200 n a single day will raise its motive battery's temperature to the point that it works rather inefficiently.   

 

 

Today I ran a few more experiments on my e-NV200, with the goal of figuring out how best to keep its batteries from overheating when travelling more than 300 km.

 

Finding #1: the active cooling (a heat pump plus a fan) is operating during a DC fast-charge, but (when the ambient air temp is about 20 degrees) the batteries still gain about 2 degrees during a fast-charge to 80% SOC.   

 

Evidence for finding 1: See below for a charge from 22% SOC to 82% SOC, sensor 1 initially at about 26 degrees, rising to somewhat above 28 degrees, then dropping slowly after the charge rate drops below 15 kW. 

 

 

 

 

Additional evidence for finding #1: see below for a 40-minute charge from 26% SOC to 40% SOC, with the first 18 minutes being a DC fast-charge (initially 44 kW, dropping to 20 kW) and then about 20 minutes of AC slow charge (1.5 kW: this being 8A downrated by 10% in my mode-2 EVSE, multiplied by 230 VAC).  Note that the battery temperature started to drop after initially rising a couple of degrees, and that the slope of the temperature-drop is not hugely different between the DC fast-charge and the slow-charge.

 

 

Finding #2: you can use a DC fast-charger to lower your 24 kWh e-NV200's battery temperature by charging it above 80%, but it's rather expensive -- and you'll annoy anyone else who wants to use that charger.   See below: a 14-minute session on a $0.25/min, $0.25/kWh fast-charger; total charge delivered was just under 1.0 kWh for $4.88.   

 

 

Finding #3, The battery temperature drops about 4 degrees per hour when charging, if the ambient temperature is about 20 degrees.   See the fast-DC charge above, and see also the 20-minute AC-charge at the end of the second screenshot in this posting.

 

Finding #4, the active temp control consumes about 500W when the battery temp is above 25 degrees.  From below: a 1.5 kW AC charge delivers only about 0.9 kW to the batteries when they're hot; but the green and blue lines nearly coincide in the second half of this charging session (which was much quieter than the first half, as the fan-noise had been quite loud).   At a very rough guess: 50W for the fan, 450W for the heat-pump, and maybe 100W for the inverter (assuming it runs at above 90% efficiency, and also noticing that the green-blue difference in the second half of the session is usually 0.0 kW, 0.1 kW, or 0.2 kW).

 

 

Moral #1: if your batteries are getting hot, you might fast-charge until they cool down.  Indicative cost when the ambient air temp is roughly 20 degrees: ($0.25 / minute)*(15 minutes / degree) = ($3.75 plus 15 minutes of waiting-around) per degree of temperature drop.   Alternatively: you could ask someone for access to their AC power point.  That won't speed the temperature drop, but you won't be "renting" the (very spendy!) DC fast-charger while you wait for your batteries to cool -- and it's no faster than an AC slow-charge when your SOC is above 90%.

 

Moral #2: the best place on the NI for me to stop for a battery-cooling session in my e-NV200 is at the top of the Desert Road at night.   The ambient air temp is reliably below 10 degrees, and the stars are spectacular.  But YMMV, as you're unlikely to have an AC power supply.

 

Question: can you draw 8A from the 100 VAC 60 Hz inverter in an ex-Japan e-NV200 while it's AC charging?   If so then you can (lossily!) have its motive battery "charge itself" (with the fan and heat-pump working to drop its temp) -- well that's a lossy process so you wouldn't want to do that when you're trying to cross the Desert Road, but you could try it after a DC fast-charge session to 80% that left your batteries overheated.   The mode-2 EVSEs normally used with Leafs and e-NV200 will run all the way down to 100 VAC; and at 8A (derated by 10%, so actually 7.2A) that'll be only 720 W -- barely enough to run the heat pump and fan, so quite efficient really as a way of lowering the temperature of an e-NV200 using its motive battery as the inverter would hardly be producing any charging current.   Worth a try perhaps, but I can't do it, because I had pulled the 100 VAC 60 Hz inverter from my e-NV200 to save some weight -- has a heavy steel mounting bracket... and annoyingly found that I had to leave its neighbouring junction-box in the circuit to avoid tripping HV DC fault codes, so I didn't gain much space.   The only use I ever found for that inverter was charging a laptop -- as their power supplies are designed to work on any country's AC supply (including Japan's 100 VAC)... 


RunningMan
8112 posts

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  #2686794 5-Apr-2021 18:45
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@cthombor, interesting info thanks, but would probably be better in the Nissan Leaf thread, as the NV200 is such a close relation. This thread is more about EV news.




cthombor
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  #2686810 5-Apr-2021 19:48
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RunningMan:

 

@cthombor, interesting info thanks, but would probably be better in the Nissan Leaf thread, as the NV200 is such a close relation. This thread is more about EV news.

 

 

OK thanks... I have copied it onto that thread (in a new topic) ... but I can't see how to delete my earlier posting in this thread... nor can I even figure out how to edit it down to a crosslink pointer https://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=162&topicid=284179... so I guess it'll have to stay as is??

 

 


Obraik
2007 posts

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  #2687128 6-Apr-2021 12:14
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For those that wonder about the lifespan potential of EVs, here is a 2014 Tesla Model S(you'll need to turn on your browsers translator if you don't speak German) that has now done 1.3million km's. 

 

As mentioned in the article, it has had a couple new packs (last was at 540,000km) and a few motor units (last was at 320,000kms) but it seems those were early production generation teething issues as these haven't had to be replaced since





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SaltyNZ
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  #2687131 6-Apr-2021 12:16
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Obraik:

 

For those that wonder about the lifespan potential of EVs, here is a 2014 Tesla Model S(you'll need to turn on your browsers translator if you don't speak German) that has now done 1.3million km's. 

 

As mentioned in the article, it has had a couple new packs (last was at 540,000km) and a few motor units (last was at 320,000kms) but it seems those were early production generation teething issues as these haven't had to be replaced since

 

 

 

 

/Me cries in 71% SOH 2016 30kWh Leaf.





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These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


Obraik
2007 posts

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  #2687132 6-Apr-2021 12:18
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SaltyNZ:

 

/Me cries in 71% SOH 2016 30kWh Leaf.

 

 

Who would have thought maintaining the temperature of lithium batteries would greatly improve the lifespan? Apparently not Nissan since they still make the Leaf without that ๐Ÿ™„





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SaltyNZ
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  #2687139 6-Apr-2021 12:34
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Obraik:

 

Who would have thought maintaining the temperature of lithium batteries would greatly improve the lifespan? Apparently not Nissan since they still make the Leaf without that ๐Ÿ™„

 

 

 

 

Yeah I won't be replacing the Leaf with another Leaf, that's for sure.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


HarmLessSolutions
617 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2688301 8-Apr-2021 12:28
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It sounds like the government are considering delaying the EV RUC exemption from the existing end of year schedule. Can't say the news surprises me.

 

https://evsandbeyond.co.nz/ev-ruc-exemption-extension-likely/





https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/


wellygary
7505 posts

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  #2688319 8-Apr-2021 13:23
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HarmLessSolutions:

 

It sounds like the government are considering delaying the EV RUC exemption from the existing end of year schedule. Can't say the news surprises me.

 

https://evsandbeyond.co.nz/ev-ruc-exemption-extension-likely/

 

 

When you have no new EV policy, the next best thing to do is extend and re-announce the current policy.....


tripper1000
1550 posts

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  #2689875 9-Apr-2021 11:43
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It would be a pleasant surprise if they extended the EV RUC exemption.

 

If not, EV's at least need a separate class of RUC because the current<3.5 tonne class has had increases justified by environmental considerations, and that effectively subsidises the heavy truck RUC's. 

 

Kiwi Govt's/voters look for the single silver bullet solution and can't comprehend compound/complex solutions. For example Auckland Transport cancelled the T2 lane exemptions for EV's because (according the letter I received from them) the exemption hadn't prompted the masses to buy EV's. The fact that lots of little benefits can add up to change peoples minds wasn't enough, only THE solution will do.


Scott3
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  #2689880 9-Apr-2021 11:54
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tripper1000:

 

It would be a pleasant surprise if they extended the EV RUC exemption.

 

If not, EV's at least need a separate class of RUC because the current<3.5 tonne class has had increases justified by environmental considerations, and that effectively subsidises the heavy truck RUC's. 

 

Kiwi Govt's/voters look for the single silver bullet solution and can't comprehend compound/complex solutions. For example Auckland Transport cancelled the T2 lane exemptions for EV's because (according the letter I received from them) the exemption hadn't prompted the masses to buy EV's. The fact that lots of little benefits can add up to change peoples minds wasn't enough, only THE solution will do.

 

 

It seems highly likely that it will be extended.

 

In short, the current RUC system has issues that mean it would create a mess if the current exemption was allowed to lapse at the end of the year.

 

  • A Zoe / Honda e / Mini Electric would pay 3x the road the road tax of Yaris hybrid. Would create a strong incentive to buy Toyota hybrid hatchbacks rather than electric cars.
  • PHEV's would pay RUC's, and be allowed to clam back petrol tax (as is the case with say USA sourced petrol campervan's over 3500kg). Theoretically fine, but would create epic amounts of paperwork if say 10% of the fleet became plug in hybrids.

Kicking the can down the road another 3 - 5 years is the easy and politically palatable option, especially given we are not meeting our EV targets.

 

 

 

Eventually we do need to tackle the underlying issue. Perhaps ditch both RUC & road tax in petrol, and replace the system with a GPS based road user charges / congestion charging system for all motor vehicles. Epic project to get across the line, but massive emissions advantages to solving congestion.


wellygary
7505 posts

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  #2689886 9-Apr-2021 12:01
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tripper1000:

 

It would be a pleasant surprise if they extended the EV RUC exemption.

 

If not, EV's at least need a separate class of RUC because the current<3.5 tonne class has had increases justified by environmental considerations, and that effectively subsidises the heavy truck RUC's. 

 

 

Although on the flip side the perverse 3.5 tonne RUC limit actively dis-incentivised the adoption of small diesel cars over the last 10 years, letting us avoid the whole diesel-gate pollution bullet...  :)


tdgeek
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  #2690775 11-Apr-2021 08:01
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wellygary:

 

When you have no new EV policy, the next best thing to do is extend and re-announce the current policy.....

 

 

Looks like support is back on the table

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/evs/124473662/what-is-the-government-doing-to-encourage-ev-uptake

 

 


Jaxson
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  #2691172 12-Apr-2021 08:49
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tripper1000:

 

Kiwi Govt's/voters look for the single silver bullet solution and can't comprehend compound/complex solutions. 

 

 

 

 

Given the Trump example, this issue is global and not just a Kiwi one.  Complex issues are diluted down to click bait headlines/Tweets in less than 200 characters sort of thing.
It's a serious issue really, given our journalism is mostly searching for the next scandal to take the heat off them and fill the next 3 days worth of content easily.  If that doesn't work, we can run a poll and then talk about the results of our survey of 50 kiwis and who should be worried by the results.

 

 

 

I'm in the odd position of looking at brand new cars for my parents at the moment and I'm struggling to find an old school granny car, with upright seating, good visibility, comfy seats, zippy around town with a small turning circle etc.  Electric may well fit the requirements but there is currently zero assistance towards guiding that decision.  My mother is actually quite keen to have a sustainability aspect to it, so the likes of a Yaris Cross hybrid is on the list, but that's at a cost of $4k more over a standard petrol on her. 

Grants that levelled the playing field and removed the financial difference seem an obvious place to start.  Likewise assistance to install garage chargers (if a standard electrical outlet is not suitable).
Same could be said for local home direct online solar initiatives, something to get the ball rolling.  Anything really.



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