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frednz
1434 posts

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  #1746076 22-Mar-2017 21:48
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Hunter: I took the new corolla hybrid out for a test drive.
One of things I did was to see how long the battery can power the aircond.
So I parked up with fully charged battery, engine not running and aircond full blast.
It lasted approxmately 6 to 7 minutes before the engine cuts in.
Not sure what was left in battery, but was pretty low then.
The inside is like a fridge by then.
If I am not wrong it uses a Nimh battery about 1.6 Kwh

So if we extrapolated from that, with a 40kwh Leaf battery...

 

That was certainly a very interesting result! The battery capacity of this hybrid is pretty low, so I can understand why the battery went flat so quickly, but it shows that the effect on range of air conditioning needs to be understood by EV owners!


Linuxluver

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  #1746091 22-Mar-2017 22:03
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wellygary:

 

Linuxluver:

 

The most popular EV - the LEAF - isn't even sold here anymore by Nissan. Only about 1/4 of the 1600 LEAFs on the road in NZ today would have been sold here by Nissan. The rest are all imports by 3rd-party importers.

Auckland accounts for about 2/3 of all the LEAFs in NZ and Wellington is second, if I recall correctly. :-)

 

There are only 87 Leafs in NZ that are recorded as "new"

 

 

May be an artifact of the recording. Or it may be accurate. The 'story' was that Nissan NZ brought 200-400 LEAFs from OZ between 2012 and 2015. Whether they sold them all as "new" is something I don't know.

I'd never heard a number that low before.....but that doesn't mean it isn't correct. :-) 

 

 





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Linuxluver

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  #1746095 22-Mar-2017 22:06
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frednz:

 

Hunter: I took the new corolla hybrid out for a test drive.
One of things I did was to see how long the battery can power the aircond.
So I parked up with fully charged battery, engine not running and aircond full blast.
It lasted approxmately 6 to 7 minutes before the engine cuts in.
Not sure what was left in battery, but was pretty low then.
The inside is like a fridge by then.
If I am not wrong it uses a Nimh battery about 1.6 Kwh

So if we extrapolated from that, with a 40kwh Leaf battery...

 

That was certainly a very interesting result! The battery capacity of this hybrid is pretty low, so I can understand why the battery went flat so quickly, but it shows that the effect on range of air conditioning needs to be understood by EV owners!

 

 

I guess you haven't read my detailed response yet.

The effect of aircon / heating on almost all current models of EVs is trivial. By design. It would be insane to sell a car that saw environmentals hugely impact the traction energy.





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Linuxluver

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  #1746162 22-Mar-2017 22:17
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frednz:

 

Linuxluver:

 



Hmm....GZ seems to shrink it due to the width. It's saying that on THAT route over THAT topography my range at an average 20kph would be 334km....and I would arrive in Kaitaia on 5% battery....after 15 hours or so. :-)  


 

 

Thanks very much to those who have commented on the effect on range of using air conditioning or heating, it's very helpful to get the views of people who actually own EVs!

 

Of course there are lots of articles on internet about how extreme weather conditions can affect an electric car's range:

 

Here's a couple of extracts from the article linked to above:

 

"In fact, during peak days where the temperature is at its extreme, the range could drop by 40 percent or more," said Michalek.

 

Basically what that means is "a vehicle that normally gets a hundred-mile range, it would only get 60 miles on this extreme weather day," he said."

 

"An important factor that influences battery life is temperature. Batteries are less efficient in extremely cold conditions and degrade more quickly in very hot conditions. Plus, cranking up the heat or air conditioning uses even more energy and drains the battery."

 

So, I realise that it comes down to really understanding the particular characteristics of your EV and I know that NZ doesn't experience the same weather extremes as some overseas countries. I guess new EV owners just need to be aware that the range of an EV can be affected by lots of different factors, including the use of air conditioning and heating.

 

Regards

 

Fred

 

 

Mihalek will talking about temps like -40C.

"Extreme cold" of the sort he has in mind is found in NZ only at the very tip-tops of the highest mountains in the middle of winter. 

As mentioned elsewhere, you can pre-heat the car before leaving to reduce the effect on range and the energy required to heat. But absolutely, range is reduced if you live in a really cold place.......That's just not NZ. 

 

 





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frednz
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  #1746261 23-Mar-2017 09:35
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NzBeagle:

 

afe66: How real world useful is a hybrid with a 1.6 kW battery?! How far can it drive on that? Sounds like marketing gymic.

 

I don't think there's any intended range with hybrids, exception the likes of the Mitsubishi. Definitely effective at reducing consumption in Auckland traffic though.

 

 

It says on this Toyota website  that:

 

"Prius Plug-in provides up to 26kms of silent, pure electric driving (EV), before seamlessly switching to petrol-hybrid mode. This next-level combination means you can commute and complete short trips without using any fuel or producing any emissions."

 

But I'm not sure whether this 26km range is typical of hybrid plug-in EVs, perhaps someone could comment on this. This website does provide some useful comparisons in this regard.

 

It certainly would be better if a plug-in EV's battery provided a greater range than 26kms don't you think?

 

Fred


NzBeagle
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  #1746289 23-Mar-2017 10:12
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frednz:

NzBeagle:


afe66: How real world useful is a hybrid with a 1.6 kW battery?! How far can it drive on that? Sounds like marketing gymic.


I don't think there's any intended range with hybrids, exception the likes of the Mitsubishi. Definitely effective at reducing consumption in Auckland traffic though.



It says on this Toyota website  that:


"Prius Plug-in provides up to 26kms of silent, pure electric driving (EV), before seamlessly switching to petrol-hybrid mode. This next-level combination means you can commute and complete short trips without using any fuel or producing any emissions."


But I'm not sure whether this 26km range is typical of hybrid plug-in EVs, perhaps someone could comment on this. This website does provide some useful comparisons in this regard.


It certainly would be better if a plug-in EV's battery provided a greater range than 26kms don't you think?


Fred



Perhaps we should differentiate here. Plug in hybrid vs "traditional" hybrid, eg original Prius/Camry.
I assumed it was the 'traditional' version being tested with 7 mins AC.

Scott3
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  #1746737 23-Mar-2017 23:39
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NzBeagle:

Perhaps we should differentiate here. Plug in hybrid vs "traditional" hybrid, eg original Prius/Camry.
I assumed it was the 'traditional' version being tested with 7 mins AC.

 

Corolla hybrid has no plug in version to my knowledge.

Also a test starting from an unknown state of charge is of limited value.


 
 
 
 


Ge0rge
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  #1746742 24-Mar-2017 05:22
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Scott3:

NzBeagle:

Perhaps we should differentiate here. Plug in hybrid vs "traditional" hybrid, eg original Prius/Camry.
I assumed it was the 'traditional' version being tested with 7 mins AC.


Corolla hybrid has no plug in version to my knowledge.

Also a test starting from an unknown state of charge is of limited value.



"So I parked up with a fully charged battery..." (from @Hunter's post)

Surely that gives you a known state of charge?

Scott3
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  #1746842 24-Mar-2017 09:20
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Ge0rge:

"So I parked up with a fully charged battery..." (from @Hunter's post)

Surely that gives you a known state of charge?


Yeah, I should read better....

I assume upper and lower cutoff's are available in literature (generally won't use the top and bottom of the battery to make the packs last longer.)


RUKI
1151 posts

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  #1746955 24-Mar-2017 11:37
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Hunter: I took the new corolla hybrid out for a test drive.
One of things I did was to see how long the battery can power the aircond.
So I parked up with fully charged battery, engine not running and aircond full blast.
It lasted approxmately 6 to 7 minutes before the engine cuts in.
Not sure what was left in battery, but was pretty low then.
..........

 

What you did is so-called Stall Test. Mandatory in that test is applying parking brakes, foot on the brakes and gear in rear, optionally - lights on and aircon on.

 

With lights on and aircon on - you are discharging traction battery with about 5 amps, more or less (+/- 30% error);

 

That test has to be done stationary with at least two cycles of ICE on/off.

 

Wrong assumption in your test is that the battery "was fully charged" - it was not. 6-7 minutes is not bad result, not the best. XX minutes (will not tell as people would assume wrong things) is brand new battery under XX conditions.

 

During that test I would usually look at my scan tools (and do the data capture) to see couple of important metrics to conclude the battery's state of health.

 

Only Battery State of Health can be estimated in that test. Not Battery Capacity. Bench test with one of my Analysers will provide precise a clear view of what the Usable Remaining Capacity is. More info here: www.hybrids.co.nz


Linuxluver

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  #1747313 24-Mar-2017 21:36
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A hybrid that isn't pluggable isn't considered to be an EV as it cannot function without petrol.




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frednz
1434 posts

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  #1747514 25-Mar-2017 11:57
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Linuxluver: A hybrid that isn't pluggable isn't considered to be an EV as it cannot function without petrol.

 

Yes, on the NZ Electric Car Guide  site it says that "what we used to call hybrids no longer count". It goes on to say that:

 

"They can only fill up on petrol, and use the petrol engine and regenerative braking to recharge a small battery that gives a short (1-2 km) electric range. A plug-in vehicle has many more benefits."

 

So what do you consider are the "many more benefits" that are offered by a plug-in hybrid that has a range from its battery of say, 30km?

 

Does a hybrid that isn't pluggable sometimes run solely on its battery even if its range is only 1-2km? Perhaps it does this when the vehicle is going quite slowly?

 

So what is the main advantage of a "non-pluggable" hybrid in comparison to a normal petrol engine? After all, even though it may not count as an EV, it does have, say, a 1.6 kWh battery.

 

Thanks

 

Fred

 

 

 

 


PhantomNVD
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  #1747610 25-Mar-2017 15:59
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Just a thought.. if I got "Electric Kiwi" free hour of power and a modern high KW charger I could essentially run the EV for 'free'?

wellygary
4999 posts

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  #1747636 25-Mar-2017 17:21
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PhantomNVD: Just a thought.. if I got "Electric Kiwi" free hour of power and a modern high KW charger I could essentially run the EV for 'free'?

 

Only If you have a DC charger, and a 3 phase power connection and some heavy duty wiring...

 

A regular house conenction has a 60A / 80A rating, so at 240V the most instant load you will pull is 14-19 Kw per hour, and even that will require up spec'd wiring

 

 


RUKI
1151 posts

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  #1747701 25-Mar-2017 20:13
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frednz:

 

.......

 

Does a hybrid that isn't pluggable sometimes run solely on its battery even if its range is only 1-2km? Perhaps it does this when the vehicle is going quite slowly?

 

So what is the main advantage of a "non-pluggable" hybrid in comparison to a normal petrol engine? After all, even though it may not count as an EV, it does have, say, a 1.6 kWh battery.

 

......

 

 

I can reply as I have Prius C. When on driveway, in the garage, backing, or taking off, it never runs on gas, it always goes in EV mode automatically. When parking inside underground garage in CBD it is handy as you do not smell fumes. Consumption for the last few months is 4.1L/100 kms. 28L (tank is 36L) gives you about 700 kms range. When you are sitting in the traffic jam, or at the traffic lights - the ICE engine stops and you take off in EV mode. The main benefit for me is I can make round trip to places which I am frequently visiting where unfortunately there are no EV charging stations, not even planned in the nearest future and you can't make it in a popular Leaf (EV) ..


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