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HarmLessSolutions
613 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2728435 14-Jun-2021 11:34
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Jaxson:

 

SaltyNZ:

 

It's what I plan to swap the Leaf for. I was going to have to do something next year regardless as battery continues to drop in my extremely-well-used Leaf but now it puts a decent replacement with a battery warranty (!) in reach instead of swapping it for another Leaf.

 

 

 

 

Jokes aside, what is the plan for these leafs with stuffed batteries (no thermal management / cooling on their battery packs) when they all start reaching this point?

 

Is there a viable battery replacement option for a car that costs what $10k by that stage or less?

 

 

 

Is anyone offering a service to refresh/replace these?

 

And where do you dump the old battery packs?

 

Are people going to dump a whole car at that point as scrap?

 

Can the batteries be recycled or is it just pure waste?

 

 

 

I know a few people with leafs, who are just happily using them and feel part of a green club.
What I don't hear much is what the actual plan is over the next 5 - 10 years when their capacity is dramatically deminished.

 

Answers to most if not all of your questions here: https://evsenhanced.com/services/hv-battery-swaps-and-upgrades/

 

ETA: Our 2012 Leaf's battery is due for an upgrade (to 30kWh) which will cost us ~$11K using the estimater on the above website. While that cost won't be reflected in an increased value of the Leaf it enables us to run it for another 10+ years saving 2-3K in energy costs compared to an equivalent ICE, plus of course minimal maintenance comparitively, so the upgrade cost makes economic sense.





https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/


 
 
 

You will find anything you want at MightyApe (affiliate link).
Dingbatt
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  #2728444 14-Jun-2021 11:48
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SaltyNZ:

 

halper86:

 

I wonder how many people will cheat this scheme and make money off these "feebates"?

 

 

 

 

By doing what? Buying an EV, taking the rebate, and then selling the (now used) car again for way less than they paid for it (with the used buyer knowing that the car just got a rebate on it so they'll expect that knocked off the used price too)? ... Knock yourself out I guess.

 

 

It is a valid question. On the surface you are correct but never underestimate the deviousness of some people to make a quick buck. I’m assuming they will just use use the “High Trust Model” that has worked so well in the past.





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


SaltyNZ
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  #2728446 14-Jun-2021 11:51
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Jaxson:

 

Is anyone offering a service to refresh/replace these?

 

And where do you dump the old battery packs?

 

Are people going to dump a whole car at that point as scrap?

 

Can the batteries be recycled or is it just pure waste?

 

 

 

 

Realistically, in 2021 - stuff-all. Eventually recycling will be economical - hard to see how you could leave all that nearly-pure resource just lying in a big pile - but for now what mostly happens is either someone takes the battery out for their home solar project where reduced capacity isn't a problem, or it just sits in the car in a wrecker's yard.

 

Personally I think the government should be doing more to assist with ensuring a supply of replacement batteries at reasonable prices as the reality is that there are thousands of Leafs in NZ that were used when they were imported, and the battery is the only thing stopping them from going for another decade.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.




SaltyNZ
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  #2728447 14-Jun-2021 11:53
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Dingbatt:

 

It is a valid question. On the surface you are correct but never underestimate the deviousness of some people to make a quick buck. I’m assuming they will just use use the “High Trust Model” that has worked so well in the past.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, the world is full of donkey holes I guess. Having the rebate go back to the registered owner rather than the dealer makes it a little more difficult to game because there will be an easy, public paper trail to follow.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


frankv
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  #2728448 14-Jun-2021 11:54
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Jaxson:

 

Can the batteries be recycled or is it just pure waste?

 

 

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/batteries-storage/lithiumion-battery-recycling-finally-takes-off-in-north-america-and-europe

 

I guess you need a certain throughput of old batteries before a battery-recycling industry becomes viable. Worst case,we ship our dead batteries to a recycler overseas.

 

 


HarmLessSolutions
613 posts

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  #2728452 14-Jun-2021 11:59
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frankv:

 

Jaxson:

 

Can the batteries be recycled or is it just pure waste?

 

 

https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/batteries-storage/lithiumion-battery-recycling-finally-takes-off-in-north-america-and-europe

 

I guess you need a certain throughput of old batteries before a battery-recycling industry becomes viable. Worst case,we ship our dead batteries to a recycler overseas.

 

 

 

Lack of supply would seem to be the limiting factor for Redwood Materials. That will change to their advantage.





https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/


halper86
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  #2728454 14-Jun-2021 12:00
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SaltyNZ:

 

By doing what? Buying an EV, taking the rebate, and then selling the (now used) car again for way less than they paid for it (with the used buyer knowing that the car just got a rebate on it so they'll expect that knocked off the used price too)? ... Knock yourself out I guess.

 

 

I mean for used cars: buying them, claiming the rebate, then selling. Not going to drop the price much, and the next owner can claim the rebate too. Then just complete that with a few more cars.

 

tdgeek:

 

I don't see how. Not unless dealers who bring in used cars keep the price up as "it includes the rebate and its in great nick and got features"  but you would hope the market will solve that if most dealers keep the price correct. Actually, who gets that rebate? The used import dealer or the first private buyer of that car?

 

 

From the sounds of things, the private buyer.

 

 

 

I wonder if the Government will have measures in place to stop this fraud. ie have a database for the car, and a database for the individual.




SaltyNZ
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  #2728461 14-Jun-2021 12:16
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halper86:

 

I mean for used cars: buying them, claiming the rebate, then selling. Not going to drop the price much, and the next owner can claim the rebate too. Then just complete that with a few more cars.

 

 

 

 

The rebate only applies the first time the car is registered in NZ. Buying and selling cars already in NZ won't net you anything unless you are fraudulently re-registering them, in which case you're already part of an international criminal car re-lifing syndicate.





iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

 

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.


BlinkyBill
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  #2728463 14-Jun-2021 12:20
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halper86:

 

 

 

I mean for used cars: buying them, claiming the rebate, then selling. Not going to drop the price much, and the next owner can claim the rebate too. Then just complete that with a few more cars.

 

 

From the sounds of things, the private buyer.

 

 

 

I wonder if the Government will have measures in place to stop this fraud. ie have a database for the car, and a database for the individual.

 

 

Perhaps you should review how the scheme is going to be implemented?


Jaxson
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  #2728464 14-Jun-2021 12:21
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HarmLessSolutions:

 

Answers to most if not all of your questions here: https://evsenhanced.com/services/hv-battery-swaps-and-upgrades/

 

 

 

 

Not trying to be negative here, but this doesn't sound scalable to address the fleet of leaf vehicles nearing end of life capacity:

 

 

 

Where do you source your replacement batteries?

 

Our replacement packs are primarily sourced from lightly damaged vehicles that are not deemed economical to repair. 


antonknee
1133 posts

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  #2728491 14-Jun-2021 13:16
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wellygary:

 

Scott3:

 

The below has been published on the labor parties Facebook page. As an example $3210 discount on a new corolla hybrid first registered after 1 Jan 2022.

 

May be an image of car and text that says 'WE'RE MAKING IT CHEAPER FOR KIWIS TO DRIVE CLEANER CARS Suzuki Swift Nissan Leaf (EV) Mitsubishi Outlander (PHEV) $2340 OFF Toyota Prius (PHEV) $8625 OFF Toyota RAV4 (yb) $5750 OFF Tesla Model 3 (EV) $5750 OFF Toyota Corolla (Hybd) $2340 OFF Toyota C-HR (ybrd) $8625 OFF Honda Jazz $3210 OFF $3010 OFF Parliament Buildings, Wellington hybrdssr1 January 2022. $1360 OFF Labour'

 

 

 

I'm not sure what the exact equation is to work out the discount / fee on a particular car. 

 

 

Yeah, but if you head over to Toyota, you find this

 

Currently, our average delivery time is on average 16 weeks, and some more popular models are taking longer due to global demand, closed borders, delayed shipping, and logistics.

 

Vehicles with extended delivery delays
Due to unprecedented global demand expected delivery of the vehicles below is longer than 6 months. Contact your preferred store for more information."

 

Hiluz

 

RAV4

 

https://www.toyota.co.nz/our-range/vehicle-delivery-and-wait-times/

 

 Car companies in NZ need extra demand like a hole in the head at the moment, about the only one that can probably increase supply down here might be Tesla..

 

 

Rebate wouldn’t apply to RAV4 until 2022 anyway, so not relevant to current demand and arguably might cause some to wait. 


WyleECoyoteNZ
1040 posts

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  #2728509 14-Jun-2021 13:40
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With this news over the weekend, is NZ generating enough electricity for wide spread EV adoption?

 

This story from ACT MP Simon Court a couple of weeks ago says maybe not.

 

https://www.magic.co.nz/home/news/2021/06/simon-court--new-zealand-is-staring-down-the-barrel-of-an-energy.html

 

Whether what he is claiming is true or not, I haven't looked into, so maybe just political campaigning.

 

Interestingly, listening to Peter Williams on Magic talk this morning, in May, 25% of the electricity generation came from either burning coal or gas.

 

And from listening to talk back this morning, there have been others questioning is the current generation sufficient ? Are the local transfomers in the neighborhood\community up for increased load?

 

And for my own information, if you have a 70's house is the house wiring able to cope with fast charger installation?

 

Not knocking the EVs, but the public need to know the infrastructure and generation are in place to allow for widespread EV adoption.


sleemanj
1480 posts

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  #2728510 14-Jun-2021 13:49
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

With this news over the weekend, is NZ generating enough electricity for wide spread EV adoption?

 

 

 

 

If all the cars in NZ today were EV, we would use, very roughly back of the envelope speaking, the output of 1x Manapouri power station to power them all.

 

Conveniently, we might have 1x Manapouri power station coming on the market in the next few years ;-)  We also however have a load, more than is necessary, of consented renewable power generation facilities on the books which havn't been built because the demand isn't there yet.  As demand increases, generation will easily increase to match, it's just not that much power.

 

I think it is safe to say that the majority of people do and will likely continue to just use a 10A plug in charge at home overnight sufficient to cover their daily driving the next day, that is no different than plugging in a 2.4kW heater, or your typical hot water cylinder.  People see a car getting plugged in, it's the size of car, and they think it is absolutely a huge massive load, people see a standard oil column heater plugged in and think nothing of it.

 

 





---
James Sleeman
I sell lots of stuff for electronic enthusiasts...


wellygary
7490 posts

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  #2728511 14-Jun-2021 13:49
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

With this news over the weekend, is NZ generating enough electricity for wide spread EV adoption?

 

This story from ACT MP Simon Court a couple of weeks ago says maybe not.

 

https://www.magic.co.nz/home/news/2021/06/simon-court--new-zealand-is-staring-down-the-barrel-of-an-energy.html

 

Whether what he is claiming is true or not, I haven't looked into, so maybe just political campaigning.

 

Interestingly, listening to Peter Williams on Magic talk this morning, in May, 25% of the electricity generation came from either burning coal or gas.

 

And from listening to talk back this morning, there have been others questioning is the current generation sufficient ? Are the local transfomers in the neighborhood\community up for increased load?

 

And for my own information, if you have a 70's house is the house wiring able to cope with fast charger installation?

 

Not knocking the EVs, but the public need to know the infrastructure and generation are in place to allow for widespread EV adoption.

 

 

The trick to EV charging is to be able to program it to run Off peak.... there is plenty of capacity on the network overnight

 

(once homes get over the evening peak)

 

You can get 2KW/h from a regular outlet, so that's potentially more than 15Kwh overnight (around 100kms of range)... so its not a major crisis if you can't install a hone "fast" charger.. 

 

 


Jaxson
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  #2728513 14-Jun-2021 13:51
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Feed/cable to your house will be sufficient.

And you'll be able to charge (if your car allows for it) slowly from a normal household outlet (will take a long time to charge fully).

 

Most recommend the installation of a dedicated fast charging unit, which requires installation back to your main board.
This higher capacity unit will require an electrician to install, and it provides more power, similar to say the circuit for your oven.

The thing going for charge at home cars at the moment is that they charge overnight, which is outside peak demand periods, so should be green for now.
If everyone gets home around 5:30pm and puts the house heating on (all on heat pumps now) and turns on the oven to cook dinner and boils water, and puts their car on to charge, then we may see the rise of a new peak period.  This is the conversation piece, but for now we're not there yet.



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