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RobDickinson
1408 posts

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  #2924352 9-Jun-2022 15:47
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Theres quite a lot of lithium around but yeah depends on demand and pricing, some good progress on extracting it from the sea or via hydro etc


 
 
 

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Obraik
2001 posts

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  #2924357 9-Jun-2022 15:49
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Also, unlike oil, it can be recycled out of old batteries to make new ones.





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wellygary
7490 posts

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  #2924375 9-Jun-2022 16:43
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MikeAqua:

 

DS248:

 

Dropping mineral prices forecast to reduce EV prices

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-09/electric-cars-lithium-price-batteries-credit-suisse/101135860

 

 

Everything I've read about the lithium market reminds me of the oil market - supply is very demand sensitive and a few countries/cartels have lot of control.

 

I hope I'm wrong.  Cheap lithium would be good not just for cheaper cars but for mobile devices, and even toys.

 

 

Lithium Ore (Spodumene) at USD $2500/tonne isn't cheap, its basically back where it was at the end of 2021.... so I think the journo who wrote it needs a bit of a reality check 

 

 

https://www.afr.com/companies/mining/lithium-price-rockets-45pc-with-no-end-in-sight-20220204-p59trs

 

 




RobDickinson
1408 posts

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  #2924379 9-Jun-2022 16:48
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Supply will struggle to keep up with EV expansion imo, currently theres about $3500-4000USD worth of lithium carbonate in a model 3 kind of car


HarmLessSolutions
613 posts

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  #2924394 9-Jun-2022 17:15
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RobDickinson:

 

Theres quite a lot of lithium around but yeah depends on demand and pricing, some good progress on extracting it from the sea or via hydro etc

 

That situation will only exist so long as lithium remains to be the dominant 'ingredient' in batteries. There is plenty of effort going into the use of cheaper and more freely available minerals. https://www.newscientist.com/question/lithium-battery-alternatives/

 

In particular the use of flow batteries in large (utility) scale storage is an interesting field. https://redflow.com/





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RobDickinson
1408 posts

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  #2924440 9-Jun-2022 19:40
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Flow batteries are not going to be used in cars, for grid storage yeah mebe.  Redflow seem to be about twice the cost of lithium batteries lasts ime I looked. 

 

 

 

As to the rest, sure one day we may have sodium or whatever but its a very long time away at the moment if ever


bfginger
1237 posts

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  #2924547 10-Jun-2022 08:10
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The Sakura is equipped with a state-of-the-art lithium-ion battery that has a track record of performance and reliability in the LEAF. 

 

Hard, hard, no-look pass. 

 

 

Despite the Nissan marketing department's faux pas it is far more likely to have a power train derived from the i-Miev which was at the opposite end of the durability spectrum. I doubt Nissan's design input extends much beyond the cosmetic. It was common for 16kWh i-Mievs to have greater range than 24kWh Leafs because of the latter's batteries.

 

""Kei" cars are legal in New Zealand,"

 

I know but I saw a quip somewhere about the eK X EV having compliance issues in NZ and I wondered if that was the case.

 

"Have they just rebodied the iMiev with a 20kwh battery?"

 

No, they're derived from the latest Mitsubishi eK which was introduced 3 years ago. The i-Car / i-Miev were introduced 16 / 15 years ago.

 

"A small EV with 20kWh battery might be able to do a real world 7km / kWh. That's about 140km. For around any of NZ's towns or cities that's a very good car in many ways. If it has active battery temperature management it could even be used for occasional regional trips."

 

The Mitsubishi press release says the battery is refrigerated.

 

The front of the Sakura looks like it's been designed to be more aerodynamic than the eK X EV so it may last longer at highway speeds. Could Mitsubishi have let some air flow through on purpose to help cooling?

 

 




wellygary
7490 posts

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  #2924574 10-Jun-2022 09:05
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bfginger:

 

 

The Sakura is equipped with a state-of-the-art lithium-ion battery that has a track record of performance and reliability in the LEAF. 

 

Hard, hard, no-look pass. 

 

 

Despite the Nissan marketing department's faux pas it is far more likely to have a power train derived from the i-Miev which was at the opposite end of the durability spectrum. I doubt Nissan's design input extends much beyond the cosmetic. It was common for 16kWh i-Mievs to have greater range than 24kWh Leafs because of the latter's batteries.

 

""Kei" cars are legal in New Zealand,"

 

I know but I saw a quip somewhere about the eK X EV having compliance issues in NZ and I wondered if that was the case.

 

"Have they just rebodied the iMiev with a 20kwh battery?"

 

No, they're derived from the latest Mitsubishi eK which was introduced 3 years ago. The i-Car / i-Miev were introduced 16 / 15 years ago.

 

"A small EV with 20kWh battery might be able to do a real world 7km / kWh. That's about 140km. For around any of NZ's towns or cities that's a very good car in many ways. If it has active battery temperature management it could even be used for occasional regional trips."

 

The Mitsubishi press release says the battery is refrigerated.

 

The front of the Sakura looks like it's been designed to be more aerodynamic than the eK X EV so it may last longer at highway speeds. Could Mitsubishi have let some air flow through on purpose to help cooling?

 

 

Its not the battery that would be my greatest concern, its the Kei car limit of a  47kw motor, which is essentially the same as the IMiev had,  

 

 


martyyn
1855 posts

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  #2924635 10-Jun-2022 11:10
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I assume this is the right forum for this. Some thoughts on test drives and a charging question.

 

We decided it was time to swap the 535D for an EV. Our use case is now a 50km commute with the odd 180km round trip maybe once a month. Anything else we take my car. So this week I we went out to drive a few with a view to buying.

 

They all drive really well, as you would expect, so the quick reasons for or against remembering I'm 6'5 and my wife is 6', we aren't really interested in the tech and don't really want an SUV. Number one priority is how comfortable the car is.

 

----

 

Telsa Model 3 - I've driven a couple of model 3's. It would be a contender, but the 12 month waiting list rules them out.

 

New Kia EV6 - can't remember the exact spec but at $110k my wife wouldn't go near it! The seats weren't all that comfortable and the salesperson looked like he'd rather be doing anything other than selling a car.

 

New Hyundai Ioniq 5 - I love the look of this from the outside, the interior not so much. Couldn't find anyone to talk so we went next door to look at....

 

2021 Leaf - For $60k+ I'd expect a much much better interior. Some of the switches look like they came from a Jaycar clearance bin. Didn't even drive it though, sales wouldn't let us near until we said it was the car we wanted. No amount of "how do we know unless we drive it" was going to change his mind. Nice enough bloke, but clearly reading from a script.

 

New Peugeot 208GT - This was a proper little rocket. But my god it was hard to get in and out of. If I was a 20-something single bloke looking for a go cart I would've bought this on the spot.

 

New Peugeot 2008GT - The SUV version was just as difficult to access. Low roof with very high sills I tripped on when getting out. My wife loved the exterior, but inside it was just so "french". The rear view mirror took up half the windscreen, the low roof and high dash made me feel I was looking through the slit on a tank. If I was 5'10 maybe it would be comfortable. The back was even smaller because the front seats are massive. The saleswoman was by far the best we met all day, extremely friendly, nothing was too much trouble.

 

2020 BMW i3 - My wife does not like the exterior at all. We only went in because we had a coffee next door. The interior however won her over completely. It's a tiny car but the space inside is stunning. The seats are fantastic, it turns on a sixpence, the boot is easy to get things in and out of and it's not an SUV. She wanted it immediately.

 

----

 

So my question is

 

With only doing 50km round trip the 3-pin plug in our garage which already has a 15A plug for our caravan will be more than enough for it to charge overnight wont it ?

 

 

 

 


HarmLessSolutions
613 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2924638 10-Jun-2022 11:26
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martyyn:

 

 

 

So my question is

 

With only doing 50km round trip the 3-pin plug in our garage which already has a 15A plug for our caravan will be more than enough for it to charge overnight wont it ?

 

The latest i3 has a 42kWh battery and 15 amps is about 3.5kW at NZ mains voltage so a dead flat battery (which you shouldn't ever experience) would take around 12 hours to charge to 100%. Your everyday running should be well and truly covered by overnight charging from a 15 amp socket.

 

Suggest you check out a power supplier with off peak rates if yours doesn't already. We're with Ecotricity largely for that reason.





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wellygary
7490 posts

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  #2924640 10-Jun-2022 11:37
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martyyn:

 

2020 BMW i3 - My wife does not like the exterior at all. We only went in because we had a coffee next door. The interior however won her over completely. It's a tiny car but the space inside is stunning. The seats are fantastic, it turns on a sixpence, the boot is easy to get things in and out of and it's not an SUV. She wanted it immediately.

 

----

 

So my question is

 

With only doing 50km round trip the 3-pin plug in our garage which already has a 15A plug for our caravan will be more than enough for it to charge overnight wont it ?

 

 

My M-in-Law has an earlier generation i3, ( the newer one probably have slightly better economy) 

 

it does around 16Kwh/100km, so 50Km a day is about 8Kwh, even at 10amps that's only about 4 hours charge to cover that distance


kingdragonfly
9144 posts

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  #2924654 10-Jun-2022 12:08
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wellygary:Its not the battery that would be my greatest concern, its the Kei car limit of a  47kw motor, which is essentially the same as the IMiev had


The engine output is a part of the Japanese kei regulation. Japanese owner get a number of benefits from owning a "kei" car, over larger cars.

wellygary
7490 posts

Uber Geek


  #2924662 10-Jun-2022 12:30
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kingdragonfly:
wellygary:Its not the battery that would be my greatest concern, its the Kei car limit of a  47kw motor, which is essentially the same as the IMiev had


The engine output is a part of the Japanese kei regulation. Japanese owner get a number of benefits from owning a "kei" car, over larger cars.

 

Yeah , yeah, well aware of that , have lived in Japan, so know the multiple benefits of kei over "white plate".. esp related to Shakoshomeishou  + Shaken

 

its just that 47Kw makes motorway driving a bit of an adventure,.. it would be fun on the new Transmission Gully hills in Wellington


Obraik
2001 posts

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  #2924671 10-Jun-2022 12:41
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Model Y orders have opened. Starting at $78k including ORC, you can get all paint colours except Red under the rebate value





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Scott3
3374 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

  #2924689 10-Jun-2022 13:00
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martyyn:

 

I assume this is the right forum for this. Some thoughts on test drives and a charging question.

 

We decided it was time to swap the 535D for an EV. Our use case is now a 50km commute with the odd 180km round trip maybe once a month. Anything else we take my car. So this week I we went out to drive a few with a view to buying.

 

They all drive really well, as you would expect, so the quick reasons for or against remembering I'm 6'5 and my wife is 6', we aren't really interested in the tech and don't really want an SUV. Number one priority is how comfortable the car is.

 

----

 

Telsa Model 3 - I've driven a couple of model 3's. It would be a contender, but the 12 month waiting list rules them out.

 

New Kia EV6 - can't remember the exact spec but at $110k my wife wouldn't go near it! The seats weren't all that comfortable and the salesperson looked like he'd rather be doing anything other than selling a car.

 

New Hyundai Ioniq 5 - I love the look of this from the outside, the interior not so much. Couldn't find anyone to talk so we went next door to look at....

 

2021 Leaf - For $60k+ I'd expect a much much better interior. Some of the switches look like they came from a Jaycar clearance bin. Didn't even drive it though, sales wouldn't let us near until we said it was the car we wanted. No amount of "how do we know unless we drive it" was going to change his mind. Nice enough bloke, but clearly reading from a script.

 

New Peugeot 208GT - This was a proper little rocket. But my god it was hard to get in and out of. If I was a 20-something single bloke looking for a go cart I would've bought this on the spot.

 

New Peugeot 2008GT - The SUV version was just as difficult to access. Low roof with very high sills I tripped on when getting out. My wife loved the exterior, but inside it was just so "french". The rear view mirror took up half the windscreen, the low roof and high dash made me feel I was looking through the slit on a tank. If I was 5'10 maybe it would be comfortable. The back was even smaller because the front seats are massive. The saleswoman was by far the best we met all day, extremely friendly, nothing was too much trouble.

 

2020 BMW i3 - My wife does not like the exterior at all. We only went in because we had a coffee next door. The interior however won her over completely. It's a tiny car but the space inside is stunning. The seats are fantastic, it turns on a sixpence, the boot is easy to get things in and out of and it's not an SUV. She wanted it immediately.

 

----

 

So my question is

 

With only doing 50km round trip the 3-pin plug in our garage which already has a 15A plug for our caravan will be more than enough for it to charge overnight wont it ?

 



Wow, some polar opposites on that list. Large SUV's and small hatchbacks...


 

Anyway on the i3, I owned one of the early 60Ah (cira 22kWh) REX versions (EX UK) for a while, so will give a few comments.

 

There is only one 2020 i3 on trade me (MTJ439, a black pure electric, NZ new, in wellington) , so I guess that was the one you were looking at.

Few comments:

 

  • I really miss that car. Was really fun to drive. 125kW to the rear wheels meant it was plenty quick for me.
  • Didn't initially like the styling much, but it grew on me. Got lots of comments from people who loved the styling. Mine had tints in the back, which I think makes it look a little better.
  • Your comments about tiny car, great interior space are on the money for the front seats at least. Has substantially more room in the front than my current lexus RX (larger SUV).
  • Back seat configuration & space make it very much an occasional use setup.
  • 4 seater car.
  • Boot is very small.
  • As you say, turns of a dime. 9.9m turning circle (my current leaf is 11m, and my RX suv is 12.2m for comparison)
  • The newer cars with 120AH batteries will have twice the electric range of the 60Ah mine had.
  • I wouldn't go for an REX again. Kinda less important given the longer electric range. After electric running I found the noise a bit intrusive, the cira 10L is tiny, and I had a couple of issues due specific to the first year of production (they climate controlled the factory after that to avoid moisture getting in sealed parts). Pure electric will eliminate engine related maintenance and issues and be lighter & faster too.
  • Ex japan car's have the slow charge port under the bonnet (type 1), and fast charge on the side. EX UK and (later) NZ new cars have a type 2 ccs port on the side. Opening the bonnet to charge the car each day seems like a pain so I would avoid ex japan.
  • Ex japan cars are a touch lower to keep the car under some common parking garage height limit in japan.
  • Tires are an unusual size and expensive as a result.
  • Regen is aggressive, but you grow to love that. Wish my leaf could regen as hard as the I3 I used to have. (yes the break lights come on under hash regen, without you touching the break peddle)
  • Incandescent headlights on mine sucked (MTJ439 has LED's)
  • Mine had the premium Navigation screen (bigger screen in the middle of the dash, which looks nicer), and sounds system, both of which were very nice.
  • Air Con kinda weak - takes a while to cool the car down. But has the ability to hit a button on the dash to keep the aircon running for 20mins or so when parked. Real luxury to hit that button when running a quick errand, and come back to a nice cool car in the middle of a hot sun drenched car park in summer. Had the ability to program a key button to start the aircon when inside key range which is also nice, start the car cooling down while walking to it, and packing the boot etc. Wish my leaf had those features.
  • Can "code" the car to add stuff like AM radio.
  • Some early cars like mine lacked the ability to DC fast charge.
  • Seats and ride kinda firm, quite a bit of road noise on course chip. Note this car was designed as a mega city car, not a long distance tourer (I guess BMW imagined it parked up next to a X5, 7 series or similar in the garage.
  • The windscreen runs quite high, which made dealing with sun strike more of a chore.
  • Frunk is NOT waterproof, and gets leaves and stuff in it. Make sure everythign in their that isn't waterproof is in a dry bag.
  • Mine had parking beepers at both ends, and a really clear reversing camera that was nice.
  • For some reason my brake rotor's wore funny and got groves in them
  • Full carbon fiber body that makes this car very unusual.
  • I really liked the interior styling in mine. Note that there are multiple different interior packages for the i3 in some markets (lounge, suite etc.) what give the interior a totally different look.
  • There is a version of the i3 the i3s, which gets lowered stiffer suspension, and 10 extra kW. Personally I would prefer the normal one, I like decent ground clearance, and 125kW is plenty for such a small car.

In short, as a commuter, grocery getter etc, I would fully recommend the i3, especially if the household has another car they would take if they need to drive the length of the country of similar. That said, I did plenty of auckland to tauranga and auckland to hamilton trips in mine.

 

 

 

On the charging question, Most portable charge cords draw 8A, and will add about 10km or range an hour. So one of these would do absolutely fine to replace the power used from a 50km commute overnight. Obviously if you brought the car home late on a sunday night with a near flat battery, 10 hours or so of charging would only have it half full, but still enough to do Monday's commute.


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