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  #1582499 29-Jun-2016 10:54
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joker97: Why is the Toyota battery pack 35kg vs Leaf 250kg?

 

MikeAqua:

 

The Toyota is hybrid the leaf is pure EV?

 

This


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  #1582505 29-Jun-2016 11:07
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Why is it more efficient to have a petrol motor to charge an electric motor that has a range of 18km?




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


 
 
 
 


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  #1582513 29-Jun-2016 11:17
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joker97: Why is it more efficient to have a petrol motor to charge an electric motor that has a range of 18km?

 

Because most of the charging comes from when you slow down, which without a regenerative breaking is just wasting energy as heat.

 

The efficiancy of a hybrid on constant speed straight driving is not all that good, its stop start city driving they excel at.





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  #1582532 29-Jun-2016 11:46
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joker97: Why is it more efficient to have a petrol motor to charge an electric motor that has a range of 18km?

 

Its a PHEV, you get the first 18km from the plug, then the petrol kicks in and it is like any regular hybrid


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  #1582576 29-Jun-2016 12:27
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joker97: Why is it more efficient to have a petrol motor to charge an electric motor that has a range of 18km?

 

You can recover some energy by regenerative braking.

 

Also, petrol engines are most efficient when working hard with wide-open throttle. So when you're puttering around town, some energy goes to driving and the rest goes to the battery.

 

 


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  #1583035 29-Jun-2016 22:55
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joker97: Why is it more efficient to have a petrol motor to charge an electric motor that has a range of 18km?

 

Short answer: it's not...

 

 

 

Complex answer:

 

Hybrids are more efficient than the equivalent non-hybrid, because they can be fitted with a smaller engine (or an engine tuned for efficiency rather than peak power i.e. Atkinson cycle). Because people don't buy underpowerd cars in 2016, they use an little battery and electric motor to provide extra power needed to get the acceleration expected by today consumers. Also they can use the motor/battery to recover energy when breaking, and allow the car to move in slow traffic without starting the engine (until the battery runs down, and the engine starts to recharge it).

 

 

 

Electric cars are way more efficient than others because you can build 85-90% efficient motors, petrol engines peak at about 35% (and typically run at far less than this. i.e. when idling they use significant fuel but achieve nothing (ignoring trivial electrical load))

 

 

 

In a plug in hybrid you get the advantages of an electric car for the first (say) 18km (assuming you don't accelerate hard or go too fast - Most have undersized batteries and motors compared to pure electric cars, so rely on starting the engine to get consumer acceptable acceleration (and in some cases high speed)). In the first 18km you are carrying the weight of the engine, fuel tank etc that you don't need in a pure electric car, which hurts efficiency compared to pure electric.

 

Once the 18km are used, the car will start it's engine, and behave like a hybrid. (it keeps a small buffer of battery charge so it can use the battery and electric motor for extra power for acceleration).

 

There are two ways of doing this:

Parallel hybrid: (Prius) Both the petrol engine and electric motor are capable of driving the wheels, Petrol motor can also run generator to charge battery.

 

Series hybrid: (BMW i3 Rex) Only electric motor can drive wheels, Engine solely runs a generator which recharges the main battery. In battery mode the extra weight of the engine hurts efficiency, in hybrid mode, converting Mechanical energy -> electrical -> mechanical  hurts efficiency (plus you are carrying weight of a bigger & motor battery than in a Prius).

 

Series/Parallel hybrid: (Volt, Outlander PHEV) These generally work as a Series hybrid, but under certain circumstances only the engine can directly drive the wheels. For example, the Outlander PHEV operates as a series hybrid at all times, except when at open road cruising speed, when a clutch operates, and the engine directly drives the wheels. This avoids the losses efficiency losses associated with the generator and motor (around 10% - 15% each). Compared to a Prius you still have the extra weight from oversize battery & motor used in electric mode, and lower efficiency in parallel mode due to generator/motor losses.

 

 

 

The idea of a plug in hybrid is that your daily commute will be done on electricity, but if you want to high tail it to wellington, and the airport is fogged out, you still can. It means they can use much smaller and cheaper battery packs than consumers demand in pure electrics. In a plug in hybrid, they only need to size the battery to suit the expected upper regular usage (if there is a major crash on the motorway on the way home for work, and you get detoured 20km, the petrol engine will cover this unlikely situation), with pure electrics people demand the battery be sized to suit rarer use cases, and require a range buffer be kept for situations like detours.

 

Honestly the efficiency in hybrid mode for plug in hybrids is only a minor concern. It's only there for rare use cases only (and getting the first 18km for free (no petrol) will soften the blow from poor efficiency).

 

 

 

 

 

In short: Chose the right tool for the right job (between the efficient options):

 

  • Pure electric for frequent short to longer trips within range
  • Plug in hybrid for frequent short trips within range, and need ability to take for rare longer trips.
  • Regular hybrid for frequent trips beyond PHEV or pure electric range.

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  #1583086 30-Jun-2016 07:26
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Scott3: In short: Chose the right tool for the right job (between the efficient options):



  • Pure electric for frequent short to longer trips within range

  • Plug in hybrid for frequent short trips within range, and need ability to take for rare longer trips.

  • Regular hybrid for frequent trips beyond PHEV or pure electric range.



Frequent long trips fully loaded - internal combustion?




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  #1583107 30-Jun-2016 08:22
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joker97:
robcreid:

 

STUFF: Toyota New Zealand moves to electric vehicles - the used car way

 

 

 

Toyota NZ to start importing low-mileage plug-in Prius from Japan, modifying for NZ market, and selling under Signature Class.

 



What is this thing's CO2 emission vs the latest diesel vs the latest petrol? I thought there's bugger all difference

 

It could be enormous. 

 

For people who typically make many short trips in their car, they might never or rarely use the petrol engine. Many Mitsubishi Outlander owners are already in this group. The EV range is more than good enough for a work commute plus stop by the supermarket after picking the kids up from school.

 

These pluggable hybrids offer the ability to be completely emissions free but for the occasional longer trips. The emission reductions could be huge.  





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  #1583109 30-Jun-2016 08:28
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wellygary:

 

Linuxluver: My Nissan Leaf barely cracks 50km most days.

 

And that is about the range I would have expected PHEVs to have picked, less than 30km is too short

 

 

Yet.....the studies I've seen say the average travel distance in a day for an NZ car is 28km. 

 

So.....yeah...many 'travel days' will be longer in total than 28km, and will use some petrol (after 30km), but a huge number will be smaller and use none at all that day.

 

That could have a huge impact...cutting fuel use by close to 50% (best case) or a huge proportion of that considering the longer trips might be much longer when they occasionally happen (a 1,000km road trip will be equal to 35 emission-free days....and possibly more if the driver insists on speeding over 100kph and using even more - 10% to 20% - fuel).   





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  #1583111 30-Jun-2016 08:32
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afe66:

robcreid:


STUFF: Toyota New Zealand moves to electric vehicles - the used car way


Toyota NZ to start importing low-mileage plug-in Prius from Japan, modifying for NZ market, and selling under Signature Class.



 


Why Nissan doesnt do this with Leafs....


Buy the secind hand in uk or Jp and resell here with a limited warrantee. Create the demand and infrastructure gets built.


Later start selling the new ones...


 


A.


 



Toyota knows how to make money. Just read it.

They are selling 3 year old cars for $30-40k because new ones are too expensive. Went to their website new ones Cam be had for .... $30-40k depending on model ... ! WTF




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.




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  #1583112 30-Jun-2016 08:33
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joker97: Why is the Toyota battery pack 35kg vs Leaf 250kg?

 

The Toyota EV range is a small fraction of the LEAF's. The Toyota can do 30km(?) while the leaf can do 150km...or more in the right conditions with careful driving. The Nissan LEAF handbook says a LEAF can theoretically do over 220km if driven in deal conditions (dry, a tail wind, no big hills, opportunities for regeneration) with best-practice driving (slow acceleration, tire optimally inflated, dry road, never over 80kph to reduce drag / wind-resistance, etc...etc...) 

 

I've noticed I can get more distance if I sit behind a big truck. Not right behind....just a few car lengths back. The truck is cutting the air for me. 





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  #1583119 30-Jun-2016 08:50
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There are now more than 1.2 million EVs on the road worldwide. That's a lot of emissions already saved......but a long way to go.

 

Extract: 

"One million and counting: electric cars crossed the milestone in 2015 on their way to finish the year with 1.26 million units deployed worldwide, a new IEA report documents, as sales and construction of necessary infrastructure both surged about 70% in a critical advance towards limiting carbon emissions from the transport sector.

 

Electric cars still have just a 0.1% market share worldwide. But they make up more than 1% of the fleet in seven countries, including China, where registrations tripled last year. Norway had the highest share of electric cars, at 23%, followed by the Netherlands, at 10%. The other countries are Sweden, Denmark, France, China and the United Kingdom, while a decline in US electric cars sales pulled the share there down to 0.7%." 

 

.....

 

 





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  #1583125 30-Jun-2016 08:58
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The world's biggest electric car maker is......... BYD in China

 

They are now starting to sell their EVs in Australia. Their range is 300km (75KW battery pack) per charge and the price tag is A$80k. They initially intend to target fleets and taxis but will also sell to private buyers. 

 

Here's the BYD E6. 

 





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  #1583132 30-Jun-2016 09:11
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Tesla has announced plans for an EV motorhome, the "Model H". It's a pluggable hybrid (PHEV - also has petrol engine) powered by Tesla's Powerwall.  

 

It looks pretty cool. It's a great idea as such vehicles would be a natural for a drive-and-stop road trip holiday.

 

 

 





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  #1583138 30-Jun-2016 09:26
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Audi playing catchup with Telsa (who have taken many sales from Audi in Germany with the Tesla Model S).... and will now release their first EV SUV in 2018

 

It will probably be based on this e-tron Quatro model shown earlier this year. 

 

 

 

 

 





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