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wellygary
4990 posts

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  #1911567 1-Dec-2017 11:36
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

In Taupo, there is a Tesla Supercharger (x4), so based on this owners comments, that ‘fill up’ station can process 8 cars an hour. 8 vs 168. It’s a bit of a difference isn’t it?

 

Yes but when you factor in the small number of Teslas in NZ, it actually is serious overcapacity....

 

WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

It also raises the question of who is going to stump up he capital to build and maintain the infrastructure network? The big Oil companies? The local councils? Government?

 

Once EVs grow to a significant size I would not be surprised to see fuel companies look to install multiple chargers on their sites, especially if they have café/store on site that they would like to attract some more long stay customers...


frankv
3932 posts

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  #1911569 1-Dec-2017 11:38
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frednz:

 

It’s hard to imagine that we need to add another 30,000 vehicles to our roads in just one month, most of which burn petrol or diesel.

 

 

That's not taking into account vehicles removed from the fleet though.

 

From http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Research/Documents/Fleet-reports/The-NZ-Vehicle-Fleet-2016-web.pdf, the light vehicle fleet is growing by about 4% pa. As at 2016, the fleet size was about 3.7m -- that's an increase of 148,000 pa which averages out to about 12,000 per month. So about 18,000 of those "new" vehicles were replacing an existing one.

 

 


 
 
 
 


k14

k14
618 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1911616 1-Dec-2017 11:47
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

I've a relatively serious question on EVs, and that is, aside from the few Tesla superchargers appearing and the odd Council EV parking spot, what is happening with the re-charging infrastructure that just isn’t there yet?

 

Take the BP service station in Taupo central, and say it has 14 pumps. For arguments sake, let’s say it take 5 minutes per car for a car to fill up. So 1 pump is servicing 12 cars an hour and the service station itself is turning over 168 cars an hour. The traveller, commuter, local can fill up, and be on their way fairly quickly.

 

In the linked story, an owner of a Tesla Model X says it takes roughly half an hour to charge, giving a range of 250km’s. In Taupo, there is a Tesla Supercharger (x4), so based on this owners comments, that ‘fill up’ station can process 8 cars an hour. 8 vs 168. It’s a bit of a difference isn’t it?

 

http://www.driven.co.nz/news/lifestyle/me-my-car-he-s-charging-ahead-in-a-tesla/

 

It also raises the question of who is going to stump up he capital to build and maintain the infrastructure network? The big Oil companies? The local councils? Government?

 

And yes, I know you can\could charge an EV at home for most of your requirements, but an infrastructure network similar to that used by ICE vehicles still needs to exist for those that don't have a home charge point. I'm lucky that i do currently have a garage where I rent, but my brother doesn't, and his vehicle can be parked sometimes close to where he lives, or a bit further away.

 

 

Great question and it is something I think will end up being the biggest bottleneck when it comes to getting mass EV uptake. The grid infrastructure will most likely be able to handle everyone at home charging at 16 or 32 amps overnight to cover their daily commute (up to say 150km per day) pretty easily. However the fast chargers if they continue to increase the speed at which they charge will have to be built right next to power stations/switchyards or cost enormous amounts to install. Already the installation of putting in 3 fast charges in one install put them into a category of the electrical regs that require a much more costly metering system plus higher frequency of inspections etc. This is just for a 150A three phase load. Imagine how big the connection will be for a Tesla semi. Even though Tesla haven't released the information yet a rough calculation I saw online would mean the load on charger would equate to 1.2MW. That kind of stuff is only feasible either right beside an existing Transpower substation or directly next to a power station. Having those connected to a 11kV network is basically not possible. I really struggle to see how all these generation 2 or 3 fast charging installations are going to be installed that allow 5-10 min charging for say 500km of range.


k14

k14
618 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1911618 1-Dec-2017 11:50
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wellygary:

 

Once EVs grow to a significant size I would not be surprised to see fuel companies look to install multiple chargers on their sites, especially if they have café/store on site that they would like to attract some more long stay customers...

 

 

As per my post above, the majority of petrol stations will max their connection out with 1 or 2 fast chargers. The connection they are on is not designed to have loads like those of a fast charger running all day. To allow this requires serious infrastructure upgrade which is very expensive (think new cables all the way back to the substation, which could be multiple km away). It is all going to be a very tricky balancing act.


frankv
3932 posts

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  #1911650 1-Dec-2017 12:12
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k14:

 

wellygary:

 

Once EVs grow to a significant size I would not be surprised to see fuel companies look to install multiple chargers on their sites, especially if they have café/store on site that they would like to attract some more long stay customers...

 

 

As per my post above, the majority of petrol stations will max their connection out with 1 or 2 fast chargers. The connection they are on is not designed to have loads like those of a fast charger running all day. To allow this requires serious infrastructure upgrade which is very expensive (think new cables all the way back to the substation, which could be multiple km away). It is all going to be a very tricky balancing act.

 

 

I think the answer to this lies with a couple other of Elon Musk's products: Powerwall and solar cells. Together, they mean that less power needs to be reticulated to customers' premises, and it can be done at different times. So power for use at the traditional 5pm peak usage could be trickled down to consumers between 1pm and 5pm, if they need it at all. As households move to this technology, it will free up the grid for other uses. A large fast-charger would have large powerWalls which would be replenished via solar, wind, and the grid. The grid connection to the fast-charger station would only have to handle the *average* load for the day, not the peak load.

 

 


WyleECoyoteNZ
795 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1911653 1-Dec-2017 12:17
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One more thing, and surely this must be the case

 

Are the charging connectors standard across all EV's? So can\could I plug my EV in to charge, regardless of it being a Tesla, BMW or Nissan?


wellygary
4990 posts

Uber Geek


  #1911659 1-Dec-2017 12:27
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

One more thing, and surely this must be the case

 

Are the charging connectors standard across all EV's? So can\could I plug my EV in to charge, regardless of it being a Tesla, BMW or Nissan?

 

 

<smile>

 

For DC charging NZ recommends either the Japanese standard CHAdeMO or the European standard (CCS type 2)

 

- charge.net have chargers that support these two options,

 

Tesla has another type of standard,-(but there is an adaptor to allow it to use Japanese style CHAdeMO plus)


 
 
 
 


WyleECoyoteNZ
795 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1911666 1-Dec-2017 12:46
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wellygary:

 

WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

One more thing, and surely this must be the case

 

Are the charging connectors standard across all EV's? So can\could I plug my EV in to charge, regardless of it being a Tesla, BMW or Nissan?

 

 

<smile>

 

For DC charging NZ recommends either the Japanese standard CHAdeMO or the European standard (CCS type 2)

 

- charge.net have chargers that support these two options,

 

Tesla has another type of standard,-(but there is an adaptor to allow it to use Japanese style CHAdeMO plus)

 

 

Well, that's just plain silly.

 

Somewhere\sometimes there has been any agreement between automakers that the petrol filler is a certain size to allow filling in either NZ, Australia, USA or UK.

 

There needs to be an international standard for EV's too.


morrisk
217 posts

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  #1911667 1-Dec-2017 12:48
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EVs in apartment garages is an interesting problem. I have just purchased a Hyundai Ioniq EV and live in an apartment with my parking being in the apartment garage - along with around 100 other cars. My car will be the first EV when it arrives next week. There are plug points at various points in the garage as shown in the picture below. These are just rated at 10amps so can only be used for trickle charging. I had a quote to have a 16amp dedicated plug run to my parking spot and this came in at $7000 so it will be trickle charging i.e. for the Ioniq around 18 hours for full charge.

 

I have negotiated with the body corporate and I am metering the power use using an Elgato Eve Energy unit as shown in the picture - the detail of what I use comes to my iPhone via bluetooth - and I will provide the body corporate with my usage on a quarterly basis and pay for the power.

 

This is all workable for my car being the first but there will be issues as the number of cars increase beyond the number of plugs that can provide trickle charging.I will be working with the BC on solutions to this. I think it is likely that the BC will wire the garage with higher amperage to all levels or perhaps have all EV owners have their parking consolidated to the floor near the main switch board and thus minimise costs for the new wiring. Who pays but it could be that the BC pays and then EV owners buy the right to have a charging point perhaps. Will have to look at these issues once EV numbers increase.

 

 

 


k14

k14
618 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1911673 1-Dec-2017 13:07
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

One more thing, and surely this must be the case

 

Are the charging connectors standard across all EV's? So can\could I plug my EV in to charge, regardless of it being a Tesla, BMW or Nissan?

 

 

Unfortunately not, at the moment understanding all the different EV charging plugs is very similar to phone plugs of the last 10 years. Lightening, apple 32 pin, mini usb, micro usb, usb-c. Pretty much sums it up nicely!


frankv
3932 posts

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  #1911692 1-Dec-2017 13:44
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morrisk:

 

There are plug points at various points in the garage as shown in the picture below. These are just rated at 10amps so can only be used for trickle charging. I had a quote to have a 16amp dedicated plug run to my parking spot and this came in at $7000 so it will be trickle charging i.e. for the Ioniq around 18 hours for full charge.

 

 

Probably many of those 10amp plugs are on the same circuit, so it's likely that only a few of them (maybe one?) could be used simultaneously.

 

Presumably a large chunk of that $7000 could be shared if there were a number of EV owners?

 

But 16A is only 50% (or so) more than 10A, so your charging time would only drop to 10 hours. Effectively you would hog (in the nicest possible way) one circuit all night. Would it not be smarter to put in a 150A circuit so that several cars could be charged overnight?

 

 


tripper1000
1246 posts

Uber Geek


  #1911694 1-Dec-2017 13:56
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kingdragonfly: Regarding people who live in apartments, or in almost all rentals, you do make a valid point.

By the same token, renters tend to live in high-density locations, so owning a car is more likely to be burdensome.

 

It comes down to customer demands. People won't rent a place that doesn't have the features that they want (be that a school zone, number of bedrooms/bathrooms, heat pump, parking etc) - if/when too many potential tenants are turning their noses up at a property due to lack of charging points the land lord will be forced to sort it out.


tripper1000
1246 posts

Uber Geek


  #1911699 1-Dec-2017 14:08
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

I've a relatively serious question on EVs, and that is, aside from the few Tesla superchargers appearing and the odd Council EV parking spot, what is happening with the re-charging infrastructure that just isn’t there yet?

 

Take the BP service station in Taupo central, and say it has 14 pumps. For arguments sake, let’s say it take 5 minutes per car for a car to fill up. So 1 pump is servicing 12 cars an hour and the service station itself is turning over 168 cars an hour. The traveller, commuter, local can fill up, and be on their way fairly quickly.

 

In the linked story, an owner of a Tesla Model X says it takes roughly half an hour to charge, giving a range of 250km’s. In Taupo, there is a Tesla Supercharger (x4), so based on this owners comments, that ‘fill up’ station can process 8 cars an hour. 8 vs 168. It’s a bit of a difference isn’t it?

 

http://www.driven.co.nz/news/lifestyle/me-my-car-he-s-charging-ahead-in-a-tesla/

 

It also raises the question of who is going to stump up he capital to build and maintain the infrastructure network? The big Oil companies? The local councils? Government?

 

And yes, I know you can\could charge an EV at home for most of your requirements, but an infrastructure network similar to that used by ICE vehicles still needs to exist for those that don't have a home charge point. I'm lucky that i do currently have a garage where I rent, but my brother doesn't, and his vehicle can be parked sometimes close to where he lives, or a bit further away.

 

 

Again this comes down to customer demand. BP/Shell etc are already installing fast chargers at their stations in the UK and Z have installed several here in NZ. Their intension is clearly to retail vehicle fuel in the future, be that electricity, petrol, or something else.

 

Gas stations are constantly evolving. Have you noticed that in busy locations, gas stations get a big forecourt/building renovation every 10-15 years, and the pumps replaced every 5 to 10 years? For some reason kiwis assume the status quo is the way things are forever but the commercial reality is that as customer demand switches from one fuel source to another, so to will the nature of the pumps/chargers on the forecourt.


morrisk
217 posts

Master Geek

Lifetime subscriber

  #1911703 1-Dec-2017 14:21
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frankv:

 

morrisk:

 

There are plug points at various points in the garage as shown in the picture below. These are just rated at 10amps so can only be used for trickle charging. I had a quote to have a 16amp dedicated plug run to my parking spot and this came in at $7000 so it will be trickle charging i.e. for the Ioniq around 18 hours for full charge.

 

 

Probably many of those 10amp plugs are on the same circuit, so it's likely that only a few of them (maybe one?) could be used simultaneously.

 

Presumably a large chunk of that $7000 could be shared if there were a number of EV owners?

 

But 16A is only 50% (or so) more than 10A, so your charging time would only drop to 10 hours. Effectively you would hog (in the nicest possible way) one circuit all night. Would it not be smarter to put in a 150A circuit so that several cars could be charged overnight?

 

 

 

 

Yes have checked and there are several circuits involved for the current plugs so will be able to support more the one. Also there are systems that provide for some sort of load sharing across say 4 cars so it will be interesting to see what we do once the number of EVs gets above a few.


MarkH67
401 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1911707 1-Dec-2017 14:38
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morrisk:

 

I had a quote to have a 16amp dedicated plug run to my parking spot and this came in at $7000 so it will be trickle charging i.e. for the Ioniq around 18 hours for full charge.

 

 

Wouldn't it only take 18 hours if you had it down to zero?

 

Are you able to get another quote from someone else? $7k seems a bit much, $700 would be a bit more reasonable.  How many kilometers away are they running the 16A cable from?


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