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Fiordland
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  #3101220 8-Jul-2023 12:00
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How are we going to fall behind? The cars we drive now are not going to miraculously lead to enormous economic growth if they become battery operated / coal powered.

They're all imported which drives up our current account deficits, why not wait until the tech matures and drops in price as Volkswagen, Tesla, Toyota, GM, BMW, Fiat, Mercedes release Utes and other varieties at lower prices?

EV's aren't fit for purpose any time soon for the bulk of kiwis due to upfront affordability, ageing electric infrastructure, non trusted supplier and the comparative low cost of existing fleet.

If in ten years time our trusted European, Asian, American suppliers can supply cost effective vehicles powered by battery and cost effective electric grid upgrades then I've no issues with migration to EV or any other technology that lowers emissions.

Surely you don't need to ask me what the problem with China is as it's allied to Putin, forced Urghur labour, massive coal polluter and largest emissions producer globally. Why would we want to reward the CCP with our hard earned currency?




 
 
 

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Obraik
2001 posts

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  #3101222 8-Jul-2023 12:10
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Fiordland: How are we going to fall behind? The cars we drive now are not going to miraculously lead to enormous economic growth if they become battery operated / coal powered.

They're all imported which drives up our current account deficits, why not wait until the tech matures and drops in price as Volkswagen, Tesla, Toyota, GM, BMW, Fiat, Mercedes release Utes and other varieties at lower prices?

EV's aren't fit for purpose any time soon for the bulk of kiwis due to upfront affordability, ageing electric infrastructure, non trusted supplier and the comparative low cost of existing fleet.

If in ten years time our trusted European, Asian, American suppliers can supply cost effective vehicles powered by battery and cost effective electric grid upgrades then I've no issues with migration to EV or any other technology that lowers emissions.

Surely you don't need to ask me what the problem with China is as it's allied to Putin, forced Urghur labour, massive coal polluter and largest emissions producer globally. Why would we want to reward the CCP with our hard earned currency?


 

Switching to EVs moves us as a country towards energy independence. If all our transport is electric then we are no longer beholden to fluctuations in oil prices due to wars and conflict in the areas that our oil comes from (such as the middle east). This helps our economy.

 

Saying that EVs aren't fit for purpose for the bulk of New Zealanders tells me about your naivety around the subject, or rather that you have assumed that your specific use case for a vehicle is the same for everyone else. It's not; most people only use a vehicle to get from A to B. Our electrical grid is not fragile - growing it to support EV expansion is not a huge issue.

 

The most popular new EVs in New Zealand currently are from an American maker with prices that are already competing with ICE competitors. If you truly are anti-China (I think it's more that it's a way for you to mask being anti-EV) then there are plenty of non-Chinese EV options.

 

 





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Dratsab
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  #3101223 8-Jul-2023 12:11
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Fiordland - you need to start talking from a factual point-of-view, rather than an emotional, incorrect one.




Azzura
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  #3101225 8-Jul-2023 12:14
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Fiordland: coal powered.



 

 

 

ok w/e m8

 

 

 

Your argument is about as weak as your resolve to defend it.

 

 

 


HarmLessSolutions
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  #3101230 8-Jul-2023 12:16
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Dratsab:

 

Fiordland - you need to start talking from a factual point-of-view, rather than an emotional, incorrect one.

 

Most of the points he's making are straight from the anti-EV whataboutism handbook. Similar content to that put out by Rowan Atkinson recently so we have a "here's one we prepared earlier" retort from the driven for handy reference.

 

https://thedriven.io/2023/06/05/debunking-mr-beans-electric-tropes-evs-are-far-better-for-the-planet-than-ice-vehicles/





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Fiordland
13 posts

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  #3101232 8-Jul-2023 12:21
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What are you referring to? Such a lack of detail amounts to nothing.

Current production levels here, with significant levels of gas, cogen and coal. This is reality, adding EV's needs significantly more production of base power to meet the demand, ignoring the huge spend needed on upscaling infrastructure.

https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/live-system-and-market-data/consolidated-live-data

What does this mean for the average kiwi?

Huge cost increases to the price of cars and power bills increasing by at least 5 times the current cost.

In a country thats trying to mass convert farmland into forest with a struggling inbound tourism and foreign students. Can we afford huge power bill increases?

The message I'm heading is most kiwis are struggling already with the cost of living?

Obraik
2001 posts

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  #3101234 8-Jul-2023 12:26
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Fiordland: What are you referring to? Such a lack of detail amounts to nothing.

Current production levels here, with significant levels of gas, cogen and coal. This is reality, adding EV's needs significantly more production of base power to meet the demand, ignoring the huge spend needed on upscaling infrastructure.

https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/live-system-and-market-data/consolidated-live-data

What does this mean for the average kiwi?

Huge cost increases to the price of cars and power bills increasing by at least 5 times the current cost.

In a country thats trying to mass convert farmland into forest with a struggling inbound tourism and foreign students. Can we afford huge power bill increases?

The message I'm heading is most kiwis are struggling already with the cost of living?

 

Thank you captain obvious for pointing out that switching to EVs will require more power generation. Just as well people have thought of that and already have expansion projects consented

 

The cost of EVs have been going down yearly/monthly so no, you're wrong there. Power prices haven't had any major increases either - I still pay 9c/kWh off peak for mine.





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Azzura
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  #3101235 8-Jul-2023 12:29
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Can we afford huge power bill increases?

 

 

 

Well..I'll start to think about getting into solar farming then.... https://www.mysolarquotes.co.nz/about-solar-power/commercial/solar-powered-farms/


cyril7
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  #3101236 8-Jul-2023 12:30
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Hi, I agree with Obriak's comment, you seem to be of an odd understanding as to how much coal actually powers NZ. Of recent times (infact for some time) its use has been minimal except in times of trouble with other major supplies (ie low lakes).

 

Take a look at the current supply sources, you will see coal is minimal, I keep on eye on this page regularly, and it rarely shows more coal use than you see today.

 

https://app.em6.co.nz/

 

Cyril


HarmLessSolutions
613 posts

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  #3101281 8-Jul-2023 12:31
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Fiordland: What are you referring to? Such a lack of detail amounts to nothing.

Current production levels here, with significant levels of gas, cogen and coal. This is reality, adding EV's needs significantly more production of base power to meet the demand, ignoring the huge spend needed on upscaling infrastructure.

https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/live-system-and-market-data/consolidated-live-data

What does this mean for the average kiwi?

Huge cost increases to the price of cars and power bills increasing by at least 5 times the current cost.

In a country thats trying to mass convert farmland into forest with a struggling inbound tourism and foreign students. Can we afford huge power bill increases?

The message I'm heading is most kiwis are struggling already with the cost of living?

 

"Lack of details", pot kettle black?

 

The preceeding posts correcting your inaccurate and downright false claims go largely unanswered and/or ignored by you so this discussion is becoming increasingly pointless. Your continual meandering into off topic criticisms suggests an attempt to gain traction by sealioning outside the original topic.

 

Your lack of knowledge on EVs is increasingly becoming obvious which is not a good platform from which to dis a technology that many of us on this forum thread are very familiar with.





https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/


freitasm
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  #3101282 8-Jul-2023 12:31
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@Fiordland

 

What does this mean for the average kiwi?

Huge cost increases to the price of cars and power bills increasing by at least 5 times the current cost.

 

Do you have a source for this statement? 





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cyril7
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  #3101287 8-Jul-2023 12:34
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Azzura:

 

Fiordland: coal powered.



 

 

 

ok w/e m8

 

 

 

Your argument is about as weak as your resolve to defend it.

 

 

 

 

 

Whew, at least there is plenty of wind competing with coal today!


Dingbatt
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  #3101294 8-Jul-2023 12:57
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freitasm:

 

Do you have a source for this statement? 

 

 

I don’t know about 5 times but here is a quote from a CPR article* by Power Systems Engineer Bryan Leyland MSc, DistFEngNZ, FIMechE, FIEE(rtd), MRSNZ.

 

“What does this mean for New Zealand? Unless drastic action is taken we too cannot avoid substantial price increases and an increased risk of shortages and blackouts driven by insufficient generating plant with a predictable output, limited gas supplies, the Ukraine driven increase in the price of coal, the flow on effects of the rapidly increasing carbon tax, and a flawed electricity market. The recent grid emergency that drove spot prices as high as $1.50/kWh mainly because 1040 MW of wind generation produced 30 MW, signals the new normal.”

 

I heard Leyland say in a recent podcast he expected NZ power prices to treble in the next 5-10 years with the current policy settings.

 

 

 

 

 

*Escalating Power Prices. Bryan Leyland NZCPR 24 Jul 2022.





“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996


Batman
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  #3101295 8-Jul-2023 12:59
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freitasm:

 

@Fiordland

 

What does this mean for the average kiwi?

Huge cost increases to the price of cars and power bills increasing by at least 5 times the current cost.

 

Do you have a source for this statement? 

 

 

not sure about car prices but he's referring to UK power cost going up 5 times and people ditching their EVs and going back to ICE.

 

maybe he means EVs are a lot more expensive than ICEs


HarmLessSolutions
613 posts

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  #3101296 8-Jul-2023 12:59
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Batman:

 

agree with everything

 

Except that's not how innovation occurs and accepting the status quo is what got us to the point we're at now.





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