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SaltyNZ
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  #3118180 20-Aug-2023 13:18
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RunningMan:

 

@alasta not quite sure what you are referring to as extreme or narrow minded, but there have been multiple reports of breakdowns and similar on the ferries in recent times, but no reports (that I can find) of there being a fire on board (vehicle or otherwise). Based on recent reports, it would seem there is a higher liklihood of a mechanical failure event than an on board fire. I suspect this is what @SaltyNZ is meaning.

 

There's also an article on the prepartion of the Interislander to deal with EV specific fires here. The CO2 system may be ineffective against certain battery chemistry but it's one of several approaches they document.

 

 

 

 

That's exactly what I mean. 28th Jan 2023. 13th Feb 2023. 21st Feb 2023. 6th March 2023. 9th August 2023. A couple of those issues were detected prior to sailing but in three incidents this year alone the ferry has broken down in the open ocean. Yet if you were to Google for "interislander ferry car fires" the front page has one article about a truck fire, at the terminal, in 2008 (and it wasn't an EV truck).

 

As @RunningMan said, although preparations have been made it's just not a thing you need to worry about. Car fires: rare. EV fires: even rarer. Chances of your ferry breaking down: reasonably high. Chances it will break down in the ocean rather than at the dock: more often than not.

 

This isn't about EV advocacy, it's just reality.





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frankv
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  #3118236 20-Aug-2023 14:52
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Hammerer:

 

This does not work with Lithium Ion batteries because oxygen is released during chemical breakdown

 

 

What chemical reaction is this? If lithium metal is reacting with water, it releases hydrogen, not oxygen. Any oxygen present would react with lithium metal to form lithium oxide.

 

2Li + 2H2O -> 2 LiOH + H2

 

4Li + O2 -> 2 Li2O

 

I believe the real problem is that, as above, Lithium reacts vigorously with oxygen in the air, releasing a lot of energy. So, although a fire has been smothered, as soon as the water has dispersed enough to expose some lithium, the fire starts again.

 

 


frankv
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  #3118237 20-Aug-2023 14:57
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alasta:

 

As a regular user of the Cook Strait ferries, I am pretty concerned about the fire risk. All it would take would be, for example, a fire started in a campervan, spread to an adjacent electric car, then the next electric car, then the next one, etc. The ship's crew won't be able to extinguish the fire due to the batteries' inherent ability to generate their own oxygen. 

 

 

Statistically, EVs are much *less* likely to catch fire than ICEVs. https://electrek.co/2022/01/12/government-data-shows-gasoline-vehicles-are-significantly-more-prone-to-fires-than-evs/

 

Again with the oxygen... how exactly is that generated?

 

I suspect that a mixture of EVs and ICEVs is the worst case, a battery that catches fire could then cause the petrol vehicles to burn.

 

 




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MarkH67
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  #3118244 20-Aug-2023 15:24
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frankv:

 

What chemical reaction is this? If lithium metal is reacting with water

 

 

I don't think that lithium metal is the issue with lithium ion batteries. My understanding is that the organic solvent that is inside the cells that is used as the electrolyte is what is dangerous. I believe that this is different to what is used in LiFePO4 cells which also have lithium ions, but are not prone to 'vent with flames' situations.


SaltyNZ
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  #3118302 20-Aug-2023 18:44
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Battery puncture tests: NMC vs. LFP:

 





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HarmLessSolutions
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  #3118307 20-Aug-2023 18:58
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Excellent presentation countering commonly stated FUD claims on EVs and their batteries

 





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Hammerer
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  #3118345 21-Aug-2023 01:57
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frankv:

 

Hammerer:

 

This does not work with Lithium Ion batteries because oxygen is released during chemical breakdown

 

 

What chemical reaction is this? If lithium metal is reacting with water, it releases hydrogen, not oxygen. Any oxygen present would react with lithium metal to form lithium oxide.

 

2Li + 2H2O -> 2 LiOH + H2

 

4Li + O2 -> 2 Li2O

 

I believe the real problem is that, as above, Lithium reacts vigorously with oxygen in the air, releasing a lot of energy. So, although a fire has been smothered, as soon as the water has dispersed enough to expose some lithium, the fire starts again.

 

 

 

 

Check it out on Wikipedia or similar knowledgebases. Elemental lithium is not used precisely because it is too reactive.

 

Lithium Ion batteries typically use metal salts, oxides and carbonates which commonly include oxygen and less commonly hydrogen. That’s why the exothermic reactions are self-sustaining.


Hammerer
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  #3118346 21-Aug-2023 02:08
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In the relatively unlikely event of being exposed to an EV battery fire, it is worth knowing not to touch the materials and do nor be exposed to the gases i.e. get well away and do not stand downwind.

 

 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-12/firefighters-call-for-ev-crash-policy-awareness/101824468#

 

Lithium-ion battery fires release toxins such as carbon monoxide, hydrogen cyanide, hydrogen fluoride and cobalt.

 

Mr McConville said these toxins were particularly dangerous for firefighters because they were absorbed through the skin and clothing could not protect against them.

 

"[Carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide] both prevent the body using oxygen, and cyanide affects organs that rely on high levels of oxygen, such as the heart and the brain," he said.

 

"We've already had a situation in Victoria where two firefighters suffered cobalt poisoning after attending an EV fire, and have now been permanently disabled as a result.

 


mkissin
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  #3118358 21-Aug-2023 07:57
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Hammerer:

 

In the relatively unlikely event of being exposed to an EV battery fire, it is worth knowing not to touch the materials and do nor be exposed to the gases i.e. get well away and do not stand downwind.

 

 

Really this is just good advice for any sort of fire.


HarmLessSolutions
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  #3118432 21-Aug-2023 10:32
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richms:

 

HarmLessSolutions:

 

 

 

We have a smart meter, don't have switched HWC but do have export functionality, so what is Z's problem?

 

 

When I last asked, they dont support export meters.

 

Z's reply has been as you suggested, that they don't support distributed generation:

 

"Thank you for your interest in Z. I’ve checked your address on the Electricity Registry and there is a generating source at your property, unfortunately, at this stage, we do unable to cater to generating customers.

We are, however, partnered with Flick who have a fantastic plan for generating customers! If you are keen on checking out what this plan entails click here."

 

I guess their second tier electricity supplier status puts DG in the too hard basket.





https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/


michaelmurfy
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  #3118434 21-Aug-2023 10:43
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@HarmLessSolutions They actually just use Flick behind the scenes for Z Electricity.





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jarledb
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  #3118617 21-Aug-2023 14:41
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HarmLessSolutions:

 

Excellent presentation countering commonly stated FUD claims on EVs and their batteries

 

 

 

 

 

This is one of the better videos I have seen on that topic. Thank you for sharing!





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frankv
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  #3118713 21-Aug-2023 17:23
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Hammerer:

 

This does not work with Lithium Ion batteries because oxygen is released during chemical breakdown

 

.....

 

Check it out on Wikipedia or similar knowledgebases. Elemental lithium is not used precisely because it is too reactive.

 

Lithium Ion batteries typically use metal salts, oxides and carbonates which commonly include oxygen and less commonly hydrogen. That’s why the exothermic reactions are self-sustaining.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Safety doesn't mention oxygen being generated as a safety concern (although it does mention "positive electrode may produce oxygen" under another heading). According to Wikipedia, the biggest issue seems to be flammable electrolytes. Reading up on the oxygen generation, firstly oxygen is generated as an O+ ion, not as an O2 molecule. Whilst conceivably two O+ ions might collide (but not often, being both positively charged), they won't bond to form O2, because they're lacking electrons, and there are none available (being at the positive electrode). So I don't think this is a real issue.

 

Oxides and carbonates are quite stable... it takes a lot of energy to release oxygen from them. e.g. converting metal oxides to metal plus oxygen is a very endothermic reaction. I don't believe this is a credible source of oxygen molecules. Likewise metal salts are an unlikely source of oxygen molecules... typically the oxygen atom is part of a relatively stable polyatomic ion (e.g. carbonate, hydroxyl).

 

Lithium battery fires are not self-sustaining. They can be put out by excluding air from them. My understanding is that they reignite when the fuel is re-exposed to air.

 

Can you please supply an actual link to an actual explanation of how oxygen molecules are created in a lithium battery?

 

 


Technofreak
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  #3119279 23-Aug-2023 10:09
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There was the mountains of unused and broken bikes now there's the feilds and feilds of unused/discarded EVs in China.

 

How long before many of the Chinese EV makers go broke just like the bike manufacturers before?

 

https://youtu.be/1SEfwoqKRU8?si=LdMsG98zl38-9ZFj

 

The statement of "China, the land of short cuts and facades" about sums it up.

 

I somehow think Tesla and the rest of the worlds EV makers don't have much to fear from Chinese EV manufacturers, for now at least.

 

EDIT: Probably a good supply of spare parts for anyone able to get their hands on those cars.





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