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wellygary
5010 posts

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  #1917408 12-Dec-2017 13:36
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MarkH67:

 

For natural gas - Prime Minister Adern has set a goal of being 100% clean for our electricity grid by 2035 so I'd suggest what is meant by that is we will stop burning natural gas to generate electricity by 2035.  Hopefully by that time we have well over 50% of new car sales being fully electric.

 

Although the 2035 target is caveated with a "in a normal hydrological year" which give a fair bit of wriggle room to run gas peakers during dry spells, (Although to be honest I suspect that the 2035 target is premised on Tiwai having closed by then (it would be 64 years old in 2035- although the pots are routinely replaced, so its a bit like a grandfather's axe)

 

"Request the Climate Commission to plan the transition to 100% renewable electricity by 2035 (which includes geothermal) in a normal hydrological year."

 

https://www.greens.org.nz/sites/default/files/NZLP%20%26%20GP%20C%26S%20Agreement%20FINAL.PDF

 

 

 

 


Aredwood
3885 posts

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  #1917426 12-Dec-2017 13:53
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Major reforms of the electricity market will be needed. Partly to reduce the need for peaker generators. And partly to sort out silly pricing. As for lots of people, LPG is cheaper per KW/Hr than electricity. As a result, lots of electric hot water is instead being converted to gas hot water. Despite off peak or night heated electric hot water perfectly complementing hydro and wind generation.

And the resource management act needs to be scrapped or reformed to make building more renewable generation cheaper and easier.





 
 
 
 


Aredwood
3885 posts

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  #1917613 12-Dec-2017 17:10
quote this post

frednz:

Aredwood:


Under the definition in the Land Transport (Road User) Rule, an electric vehicle is a vehicle that is wholly or partly powered by a battery which is charged by plugging into an external source of electricity.

Conventional hybrids, such as the Toyota Prius or Honda Civic Hybrid, that cannot plug-in are not electric vehicles.




The above definition means that a plug-in hybrid EV, which might only have a "pure electric range" of 30kms - 40kms (or less), is classified as an EV even though the driver, on a trip from Auckland to Wellington, is likely to use petrol to power the car for 95% of the time.


If you are going to encourage people to buy electric cars that are supposedly better for the environment than those that can use petrol most of the time, then the above definition of an EV should exclude the words "or partly".


Remember also, that the Nissan Note e-Power, which runs entirely on an electric motor, does not have its petrol engine running for 100% of the time, so it's quite possible that, on one petrol fill, it could match or better the 30kms - 40kms of pure electric driving that is achieved by a typical plug-in hybrid EV.



This argument fails when you consider how the power used by the electric motor has been generated. In a note Epower, that power is only generated by fossil fuels. While in a plugin hybrid, or an EV with a range extender such as the BMW i3 REX. It is possible to drive them without ever needing to use the onboard engine. And since grid power is so much cheaper than petrol. On a long trip you would be silly not to recharge the battery when you have to stop for other reasons.

And for short around town trips, it won't be hard to use 100% grid power. Short trips is also when any petrol engine is least efficient, as the engine can't warm up properly. So this is where a plug in hybrid or full EV would give the biggest savings.

And there is the massive price difference between the Note Epower and the non hybrid Note. That price difference pays for a heck of a lot of petrol. So you are unlikely to recoup the extra purchase cost from lower fuel costs.





frednz
1431 posts

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  #1917700 12-Dec-2017 20:46
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Aredwood: This argument fails when you consider how the power used by the electric motor has been generated. In a note Epower, that power is only generated by fossil fuels. While in a plugin hybrid, or an EV with a range extender such as the BMW i3 REX. It is possible to drive them without ever needing to use the onboard engine. And since grid power is so much cheaper than petrol. On a long trip you would be silly not to recharge the battery when you have to stop for other reasons.

And for short around town trips, it won't be hard to use 100% grid power. Short trips is also when any petrol engine is least efficient, as the engine can't warm up properly. So this is where a plug in hybrid or full EV would give the biggest savings.

And there is the massive price difference between the Note Epower and the non hybrid Note. That price difference pays for a heck of a lot of petrol. So you are unlikely to recoup the extra purchase cost from lower fuel costs.

 

 

We have already discussed in this thread why the electricity generated to charge-up plug-in EVs should not be considered as emission free when coal and natural gas are going to be used for a long time in the future to generate our electricity.

 

If a vehicle which has its wheels driven 100% from an electric motor, such as the Nissan Note e-Power, is not considered to be an electric vehicle (which is absolute nonsense of the highest order), then no vehicles which have the option to use petrol should be classified as EVs.

 

 


frednz
1431 posts

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  #1917708 12-Dec-2017 21:08
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Just one other thought, you don't have to charge up a plug-in EV from a mains electricity source. Yes, it's possible to charge up your LEAF etc from a portable electricity generator that is powered by petrol:

 

https://speakev.com/threads/charging-with-a-portable-generator.19110/

 

Anyone tried this?

 

 


Aredwood
3885 posts

Uber Geek


  #1917771 13-Dec-2017 02:32
quote this post

frednz:

 

We have already discussed in this thread why the electricity generated to charge-up plug-in EVs should not be considered as emission free when coal and natural gas are going to be used for a long time in the future to generate our electricity.

 

 

http://www.hybridcars.com/nissan-taking-note-e-power-hybrid-overseas-after-beating-prius-in-japan/

 

According to this, the Toyota Pirus has better fuel economy than the Note Epower. As for sales figures, in Japan, the Toyota Pirus C is badged as the Toyota Aqua, So Aqua sales won't appear in the Pirus sales figures.

 

http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/reviews/ford/focus/hatchback/mpg

 

Then there is the Ford Focus Diesel. The 1.5L engine give better fuel economy than both the Pirus and the Note Epower. Despite the Focus having a conventional diesel engine, and no means whatsoever to power the wheels from a battery. So you would then need to tell the public - that the EV you have just bought uses more fuel than some conventional cars.

 

As for the NZ power grid, Here is the live renewable generation data.

 

https://www.transpower.co.nz/power-system-live-data and https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/operational-information/renewable-generation

 

Long term average is over 80% renewable generation in NZ. Renewable generation this year is lower than average due to low rainfall in the hydro catchments and lots of scheduled outages of renewable generation. In previous years, I have seen the live renewables % reach 93%. Which is impressive in itself, And more so considering that the majority of NZ homes use electricity for heating and hot water. Compared to lots of northern hemisphere countries that mostly use fossil fuels both for electricity generation, as well as directly in the home for heating and hot water. Of course there will be times when the marginal generator is a fossil generator, but a driver of an EV has options open to them to reduce the carbon impact of the electricity that is used to charge their EV. While the only way to reduce the carbon impact of burning petrol or diesel is to burn less of it.

 

And as more renewable generation gets bought online, The carbon emissions of both existing and new EVs will go down. But you can't reformulate petrol to achieve a massive reduction in carbon emissions from petrol cars.

 

Although Tranz Rail will be happy as they can now tell the Green party that NZ has a fully electric rail system. As the locomotives are propelled solely by electric motors. They would just have to hope that no Green party members are nearby when the diesel generators in the locomotives are started. Especially on a cold day.

 

 

frednz:

 

If a vehicle which has its wheels driven 100% from an electric motor, such as the Nissan Note e-Power, is not considered to be an electric vehicle (which is absolute nonsense of the highest order), then no vehicles which have the option to use petrol should be classified as EVs.

 

 

You haven't responded to my previous point, about the Toyota Pirus drive system. As if your definition of an EV gets adopted, All Toyota Pirus models would also be classified as EVs. Or easily could with a simple software update, disabling the electronic lockup clutch that directly connects the engine to the wheels at higher speeds.

 

And what about older petrol and diesel cars that have automatic gearboxes? As older auto gearboxes don't have lockup clutches. This means that their engines are never directly connected to the wheels via a mechanical linkage. Due to how the torque converter works - they are instead connected by a fluid coupling. But under your definition, these cars could no longer be called petrol or diesel cars. (They will have to be renamed hydraulic cars maybe?)

 

As for your last point about not classifying cars with an option to use petrol as EVs, I wouldn't care either way myself on that point. Although owners of Mitsubishi Outlander PHEVs and BMW i3 REX models won't be happy. As they would then have to start paying RUCs at the same rate as what diesel cars currently pay.

 

Short answer - calling cars such as the note Epower "electric vehicles" Opens a can of worms.

 

And if you look at how a petrol car operates from the point of view of a person who knows nothing about how cars work. From their point of view, they would think: My car has an engine that uses petrol to make the car go. If the car runs out of petrol it stops working, and I have to put more petrol into it to make it work again. Give that person a Note Epower, and that thinking is still exactly the same. Try asking such a person to explain the difference between a conventional automatic gearbox, a CVT gearbox, a DCT gearbox, or an automated manual gearbox. They probably won't know and won't care, as long as the car has a selector that allows them to choose between: Park, Reverse, and Drive, and there is an accelerator pedal and a brake pedal. Having a generator and a motor as the gearbox doesn't change anything from such a person's point of view on how to drive the car, what they have to do to keep it running, or what happens between the engine and wheels.






Aredwood
3885 posts

Uber Geek


  #1917772 13-Dec-2017 02:55
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MikeAqua:

 

Linuxluver:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Aredwood:

There is also a well known EV dealer who is advertising the Note Epower as zero emission. In Other words that dealer is claiming that a petrol engine in a car that can only be fuelled by petrol, is supposedly zero emissions.

 

No EV is truly zero emissions - despite what manufacturers claim.

 

They all emit noise, heat, tyre rubber, brake dust and probably the odd bit of bearing lube here and there.  Electricity in NZ (unless generated at home) also comes with an amount of GHG emissions - either C02 from natural gas generation or various GHG  emissions from geothermal plants - this varies by plant/field.

 

Low emissions would be a fair and accurate claim.

 

 

What the term means is zero N2O, CO and CO2 emissions. Marketing shorthand has simplified that to "Zero Emissions". 

It was never intended to signify the car emits nothing at all. 

With that in mind, "Zero Emissions" is accurate in the context intended. 

 

 

But that's not true either.  While their are zero or minimal direct emissions of those gases, they are admitted in the production of electricity.  Zero means only one thing - nil zero, nade zilch, zip or ta teh evyr least below the limit of detection.  If calling a low thickness chip Slims was considered misleading, then calling a car that directly and indirectly emits "Zero Emissions" is probably similarly misleading.

 

Limited direct emission doesn't make for very catchy marketing slogan though does it.

 

 

 

And here you go, a car with a petrol engine, that can only run on petrol. Being marketed as zero emissions.






 
 
 
 


davidcole
4980 posts

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Trusted

  #1917778 13-Dec-2017 06:25
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When is the electric golf supposed to be released? Since they seem to be skipping over the gte completely here.




Previously known as psycik

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frednz
1431 posts

Uber Geek


  #1917789 13-Dec-2017 07:28
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Aredwood:

 

And here you go, a car with a petrol engine, that can only run on petrol. Being marketed as zero emissions.

 

 

You say that the e-Power "can only run on petrol". But the e-Power's electric engine operates just like the engine of the Nissan Leaf. In fact, the e-Power petrol engine charges the battery only for a minute or two and it then cuts out until needed again to further charge the battery. So, the electric engine can operate quite happily when the petrol engine isn't even running. So, it's not really true to say that the e-Power can only run on petrol!

 

https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/nissan/auction-1461675018.htm?rsqid=e8724d4deba04add92c37c23b68c4ea5

 

The above link is to the advertisement for the Nissan Note e-Power that you refer to. If you read the detailed advertisement it doesn't actually claim that the e-Power has "zero emissions". It's main information is this:

 

OVER 850KM REAL DRIVING RANGE
- UNBEATABLE FUEL EFFICIENCY
- 100% ELECTRIC DRIVE TRAIN
- 3 CYLINDER 1.2L ENGINE AS A GENERATOR TO CHARGE A 1.5KW LITHIUM ION BATTERY
- 80KW ELECTRIC MOTOR (SAME TECHNOLOGY AS THE NISSAN LEAF )

 

3 DRIVING MODES THAT ALTER THE LEVEL OF REGENERATIVE BRAKING (NORMAL, SMART AND ECO)
- 30KM/LITRE REAL DRIVING ECONOMY (40L PETROL TANK)
- SMOOTH INSTANT ACCELERATION / TORQUE
- NEW TECHNOLOGY ONE PEDAL OPERATION

 

Now, anyone who buys this car couldn't possibly think that it has "zero emissions", so the advertisement is probably quite an accurate representation of what you are buying. The Note e-Power is no doubt a "greener" vehicle than most of the petrol / diesel vehicles currently on our roads.

 

 


paulchinnz
Circumspice
688 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted
Lifetime subscriber

  #1917791 13-Dec-2017 07:42
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@davidcole I saw a 2017 egolf on trademe yesterday. Compelling alternative to the 2018 Leaf. Unfortunately both appear to be sans active themselves battery management.

Aredwood
3885 posts

Uber Geek


  #1918979 13-Dec-2017 12:16
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frednz:

Aredwood:


And here you go, a car with a petrol engine, that can only run on petrol. Being marketed as zero emissions.



You say that the e-Power "can only run on petrol". But the e-Power's electric engine operates just like the engine of the Nissan Leaf. In fact, the e-Power petrol engine charges the battery only for a minute or two and it then cuts out until needed again to further charge the battery. So, the electric engine can operate quite happily when the petrol engine isn't even running. So, it's not really true to say that the e-Power can only run on petrol!


https://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/used-cars/nissan/auction-1461675018.htm?rsqid=e8724d4deba04add92c37c23b68c4ea5


The above link is to the advertisement for the Nissan Note e-Power that you refer to. If you read the detailed advertisement it doesn't actually claim that the e-Power has "zero emissions". It's main information is this:


OVER 850KM REAL DRIVING RANGE
- UNBEATABLE FUEL EFFICIENCY
- 100% ELECTRIC DRIVE TRAIN
- 3 CYLINDER 1.2L ENGINE AS A GENERATOR TO CHARGE A 1.5KW LITHIUM ION BATTERY
- 80KW ELECTRIC MOTOR (SAME TECHNOLOGY AS THE NISSAN LEAF )


3 DRIVING MODES THAT ALTER THE LEVEL OF REGENERATIVE BRAKING (NORMAL, SMART AND ECO)
- 30KM/LITRE REAL DRIVING ECONOMY (40L PETROL TANK)
- SMOOTH INSTANT ACCELERATION / TORQUE
- NEW TECHNOLOGY ONE PEDAL OPERATION


Now, anyone who buys this car couldn't possibly think that it has "zero emissions", so the advertisement is probably quite an accurate representation of what you are buying. The Note e-Power is no doubt a "greener" vehicle than most of the petrol / diesel vehicles currently on our roads.


 



That advertising is still completely misleading. It is no different to a box of cereal with big splash advertising saying 99% fat free. And the nutritional information then saying that it contains 30% fat.

And the fuel consumption is definitely not unbeatable, as other cars are available that use less fuel.

And there is also the moral hazard of giving ownership incentives to a car that at best, only uses slightly less petrol than existing petrol cars.

And of course there is market confusion. As you will have people selling cars which are supposedly not petrol cars, yet you have to put petrol into them to make them go.


If the Note Epower actually delivered massive reductions in petrol usage, I would be supportive of it. But it doesn't, it only has similar usage to other small hybrid cars. So giving ownership incentives to it just gives large opportunities to avoid paying road taxes. For no gain to the environment.

Also the reason why other hybrid cars have the ability to directly connect the engine to the wheels, is that you get better open road fuel economy by doing so. As you avoid the conversion losses of the motor and generator. This is not so much of a problem in countries like Singapore. But much more of an issue in NZ, where there are lots of 100K roads where you hardly ever need to use the brakes. Therefore not much regenerative braking.





jaymz
1096 posts

Uber Geek


  #1919015 13-Dec-2017 12:57
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frednz:

 

Just one other thought, you don't have to charge up a plug-in EV from a mains electricity source. Yes, it's possible to charge up your LEAF etc from a portable electricity generator that is powered by petrol:

 

https://speakev.com/threads/charging-with-a-portable-generator.19110/

 

Anyone tried this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Reminds me of the Hammerhead Eagle i-Thrust car they built on Top Gear.  Had an issue with batteries not lasting that long, so the solution was to whack a diesel generator in the back!


frednz
1431 posts

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  #1919020 13-Dec-2017 13:02
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Aredwood: That advertising is still completely misleading. It is no different to a box of cereal with big splash advertising saying 99% fat free. And the nutritional information then saying that it contains 30% fat.

And the fuel consumption is definitely not unbeatable, as other cars are available that use less fuel.

And there is also the moral hazard of giving ownership incentives to a car that at best, only uses slightly less petrol than existing petrol cars.

And of course there is market confusion. As you will have people selling cars which are supposedly not petrol cars, yet you have to put petrol into them to make them go.

If the Note Epower actually delivered massive reductions in petrol usage, I would be supportive of it. But it doesn't, it only has similar usage to other small hybrid cars. So giving ownership incentives to it just gives large opportunities to avoid paying road taxes. For no gain to the environment.

Also the reason why other hybrid cars have the ability to directly connect the engine to the wheels, is that you get better open road fuel economy by doing so. As you avoid the conversion losses of the motor and generator. This is not so much of a problem in countries like Singapore. But much more of an issue in NZ, where there are lots of 100K roads where you hardly ever need to use the brakes. Therefore not much regenerative braking.

 

Under the Fair Trading Act, a business can't make false or unsubstantiated claims that have no evidence or grounds to back them up.

 

Similarly, to avoid successful legal action being taken against someone who unfairly criticises the claims made by a business, that person needs to have solid supporting evidence from authoritative sources. I hope you have that evidence available.

 

 


MarkH67
401 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1919024 13-Dec-2017 13:08
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I think that the Note e-Power is ALMOST a great car.  If it had 1/4 of the battery power of the 2018 Leaf (i.e. 10kWh) and a plug for charging from the mains then it could be used for driving to work (if not too far) and to the shops/around town - all without having to burn fossil fuels.  With short trips not requiring any petrol you wouldn't have to run the petrol engine while cold very often.

 

But, as it stands the Note e-Power is only able to be powered by petrol or from a battery that was charged from a petrol generator (which makes it pretty much the same thing).

 

The TradeMe add says: "*** DO NOT MISS OUT ON THIS AMAZING HYBRID OF THE FUTURE ***" but I don't think this a hybrid of the future.  It is a hybrid of the present, the future belongs to the >60kWh pure EV cars.  Tesla have already announced a car that can travel >1000kms on the open road, eventually cheaper cars will be able to acheive that - then who will want/need a hybrid?


Aredwood
3885 posts

Uber Geek


  #1919948 15-Dec-2017 02:35
quote this post

frednz:

 

Under the Fair Trading Act, a business can't make false or unsubstantiated claims that have no evidence or grounds to back them up.

 

 

I fully agree, yet that dealer hasn't provided any links to 3rd party information in their listing to backup their claims the the Note Epower actually does have unbeatable fuel efficiency, and that it doesn't have any emissions.

 

Googling 'nissan note epower fuel economy' And the first result that is not an add is:

 

http://www.hybridcars.com/nissan-taking-note-e-power-hybrid-overseas-after-beating-prius-in-japan/

 

And to quote from that site

 

 

The Prius still beats the e-Power hybrid in Japanese fuel economy ratings. The Note e-Power gets a 32.7 kilometers per liter (77 mpg) score, while the hybrid Prius gets 96 mpg and the plug-in hybrid Prius Prime gets 87.5 mpg.

 

 

And I have also posted links to other cars earlier in this thread.

 

frednz:

 

Similarly, to avoid successful legal action being taken against someone who unfairly criticises the claims made by a business, that person needs to have solid supporting evidence from authoritative sources. I hope you have that evidence available.

 

 

Also it appears that you are implying that what I have said earlier is leaving me liable to possible legal action. (Please clarify if you were actually meaning something completely different) Yet my claims are very simple: There are other cars available that have better fuel efficiency than the Note Epower. And that the Epower is not a zero emission car.

 

Because the dealer said that it has unbeatable fuel efficiency and is zero emission, without any disclaimers or qualifiers. It means that if just 1 other model of car is available with better fuel efficiency. Then the unbeatable fuel efficiency claim is false. And if the car has any kind of emissions, then the zero emissions claim is also false.

 

I have already posted information listing other more efficient cars. And the dealers listing states how much petrol it uses, and that the car has a petrol engine. It is an accepted scientific fact that petrol engines have emissions. Also petrol is a hydrocarbon fuel, and a petrol engine uses that fuel by burning it. If you burn a hydrocarbon with oxygen - you get CO2 and H2O and heat. Where does the CO2 and H2O go after being discharged from the engine - into the atmosphere. In otherwords they are getting emitted into the atmosphere.

 

How about a fuel economy comparison in KW/Hrs per 100Km of the note Epower and the Nissan Leaf.

 

The leaf wikipedia page states:the United States Environmental Protection Agency found the 2011 model Leaf's energy consumption to be 21.2 kWh/100km. The dealer listing states the the Note Epower will do 30KM per L of petrol. So it would use 3.33L of petrol to travel 100Km. Google says that petrol has 9.7KW.hr per L, So the Note Epower will use 32KW to travel 100KM.

 

Result - Nissan Leaf is more efficient. And in fact probably alot more so. As I have used the USA  power usage numbers for the leaf, While it appears that the dealer has used Japan usage numbers for the Note Epower. The Japanese fuel economy and rage numbers are always bigger than the Amercian numbers for the same car. So the Leaf would actually win by a much bigger margin.

 

 

 

 






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